學校的職責就是育人，把“無知”的學生教育成為有文化、有道德的人?？墒且灿腥税褜W校比喻成一個制造模型的機器，培養(yǎng)出來的學生成了沒有思想的“商品”。很多時候，學校只強調(diào)向?qū)W生灌輸知識，而忽略了學生的個性和天賦。作為學生或曾經(jīng)的學生，你怎么看？

Host： Sir Ken Robinson is considered one of the prominent voices of education today. Producer Aurora Velez met him in Paris to talk about talents， innovation and educational challenges.

主持人：肯·羅賓遜爵士被認為是當今教育界最權(quán)威的聲音之一。制片人奧羅拉·維萊斯在巴黎采訪了他，一起談談天賦、創(chuàng)造力以及教育面臨的挑戰(zhàn)。

Aurora： Sir Ken Robinson， in your latest book， The Element， you talk about our talents. Is the school killing them？ In which way？

Robinson： Well， schools sometimes ignore them， I would say. Part of the argument of the book is that we all have very different talents， and they show themselves in all sorts of different areas. You know， for some people， it may be science or mathematics; for other people it may be dance or music. I always think of human talents like the Earths natural resources. You know， they may be there， but you may never discover them. They may be buried. You may have to work hard to find them. And schools tend to focus on a very narrow idea of ability， you know， particularly a certain sort of academic work， so its why students at school spend most of their time writing and sitting down. And Im not saying those things arent important， but theyre not the whole of human talent， and so schools often ignore young peoples real talent. You know， I think that…that we do need a revolution in education， so the change is beginning to happen， and I think itll get faster.

奧羅拉：肯·羅賓遜爵士，在你最新的書《讓天賦自由》中，你講到了天賦。學校是否抹殺了我們的天賦，體現(xiàn)在哪方面呢？

羅賓遜：我認為學校有時候會忽略掉學生的天賦。書中的部分觀點就是我們都有著各自不同的天賦，體現(xiàn)在不同的領域中。例如，有些人有科學或數(shù)學方面的天賦，有些人可能有舞蹈或音樂方面的天賦。我一直認為人類的天賦就像是地球上的自然資源一樣，它也許一直都在，但你可能永遠都發(fā)現(xiàn)不了，它可能被埋藏起來了，你可能要很努力地尋找。然而，對于能力，學校通常都只停留在狹隘的觀念上，尤其是在一些學術(shù)科目中，這就是為什么學生們在學校的大部分時間都在書寫和坐在座位上。我不是說那些不重要，但那不能發(fā)掘人類的全部天賦，因此學校常常會忽略掉年輕人真正的天賦。你知道嗎，我認為……我們真的需要進行教育改革，改變已經(jīng)開始了，而且我認為改變的速度會更快的。

Aurora： Are…are the teachers helping on that or not？

Robinson： Well， some are， and…and some arent. Its a very complicated system. There are a lot of people in education who have been in this for a very long time， and they dont necessarily see the need for change and dont necessarily feel very well-equipped to bring the change about even if they were to understand it. So I think there is a big generational shift that will happen. I think as this generation of young people moves through the system， you may well find that the whole context will have changed and…and theyll have， you know， a different set of attitudes and energies to bring to this shift.

奧羅拉：教師是否會推動改革？

羅賓遜：呃，有些會，……有些不會。這是一個很復雜的系統(tǒng)。在教育界里，很多人已經(jīng)呆了很長一段時間，他們未必看到改變的需要，或者他們即使理解改變的必要性，但也覺得自己沒能力帶來改變。因此我認為將會發(fā)生教師大換代。我認為，當這一代年輕人經(jīng)歷完這個教育體系，你就會發(fā)現(xiàn)整個教育的背景都會發(fā)生改變，他們會以一種不同的態(tài)度和干勁帶來這樣的改革。

Robinson： Creativitys putting your imagination to work， and sometimes its an individual effort and sometimes it involves collaboration. It almost always involves being influenced by other peoples ideas one way or another. I think that the， theres a huge op…a huge area for innovation—how we organize schools internally. I mean， for example， most schools are still organized by subjects， they divide the day up into small bits， you know， to 40 or 50 minutes， and they ring a bell every 50 minutes. I mean， theyd just be demoralized. It would…youd never get anything done. But we do it in schools all the time. So I think if you organize schools or learning communities around the nature of the tasks that youre asking people to do， you…youd see a very different kind of dynamic. I mean sometimes you want to spend all day working on a project， and sometimes you just need 15 minutes to do something in particular. At the moment its all organized around the schedule， and we try to fit everything else into it.

Aurora： Yeah.

Robinson： Tests and drugs and rock-n-roll， isnt it？ Well， Im not saying tests are bad. Ive never said that. Im not saying that people shouldnt be made to work hard. I think thats really important. I mean， the problem is where testing becomes the purpose of it all. Im， what have， Im not critical of there being data like this， just that people obsess about it， and it becomes the purpose of the exercise.

羅賓遜：創(chuàng)造力就是把你的想象力變成實際行動，這有時候需要個人的努力，有時候需要合作。這個過程幾乎總是會被其他人的思想以這樣或那樣的方式影響。我認為，創(chuàng)新的空間很大——那么我們該如何在內(nèi)部組織教學呢。我的意思是，例如，大部分學校都是按科目組織教學的，他們把一天分成幾個小部分，每部分是40到50分鐘，他們每50分鐘就會打一次鈴。我的意思是，他們會變得毫無生氣，它會……你什么都做不成。然而我們在學校一直都是這樣做的。因此，我認為，如果你組織學?；?qū)W習團體時以要求學生去做的任務的性質(zhì)為中心，你會看到一種很不一樣的勁頭。就是說，有時候你想花一整天的時間去做一個項目，而有時候你只需要15分鐘去處理一些特殊的事情。目前，所有學校都按照時間表來安排，我們則試圖讓所有東西去配合它。

奧羅拉：是的。

羅賓遜：測試和毒品是一對的，不是嗎？呃，我不是說測試是不好的，我從來沒這樣說過。我不是說人們不應該用功學習，相反，我認為這是很重要的。我的意思是，問題在于測試成了學習的最終目的。我不是批判這些考試數(shù)據(jù)，而是人們對此過于關(guān)注，使它成了考試的目的。