采訪：張博雅 校對(duì)：宋巖

德克 西蒙斯教授是世界知名的荷蘭風(fēng)景園林師，有著豐富的實(shí)踐及教學(xué)經(jīng)驗(yàn)。他曾擔(dān)任荷蘭森林署風(fēng)景園林部的負(fù)責(zé)人，并于2004年被任命為荷蘭國(guó)家首席風(fēng)景園林師。他參與創(chuàng)立了H+N+S景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所，并主導(dǎo)了諸如“還河流以空間”和“沙引擎”等國(guó)家級(jí)的項(xiàng)目。他也是代爾夫特理工大學(xué)風(fēng)景園林學(xué)位項(xiàng)目的奠基人之一。2017年，他獲得了風(fēng)景園林界的至高獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)——杰弗里 杰里科終身成就獎(jiǎng)。借西蒙斯教授訪問(wèn)北京的機(jī)會(huì)，《風(fēng)景園林》雜志有幸與他進(jìn)行了深入交流，并與讀者共享。

LA：《風(fēng)景園林》雜志

DS：德克 西蒙斯教授

LA：在討論您的工作以前，讓我們先追溯一下您的學(xué)生時(shí)代吧。當(dāng)您還是代爾夫特一名建筑系學(xué)生的時(shí)候，您就為自己“創(chuàng)立”了一個(gè)名為“環(huán)境規(guī)劃”的學(xué)位項(xiàng)目，而且您當(dāng)時(shí)對(duì)克里斯 范 魯文①的理論有著特別的興趣（圖1、2）。在您日后的實(shí)踐中，我也看到他的理論的影響。為什么那時(shí)您會(huì)對(duì)他的理論很有興趣呢？他日后是如何影響您的呢？

DS：你必須結(jié)合時(shí)代背景來(lái)看范 魯文的著作。我們是在20世紀(jì)70年代初“建立”了我們的學(xué)位項(xiàng)目，那個(gè)時(shí)候環(huán)境主義思潮正流行。對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)，他的理論之所以對(duì)我有著很多啟發(fā)和影響，是因?yàn)槲业谝淮慰吹接腥擞蒙鷳B(tài)學(xué)的思想把“形式”和“過(guò)程”聯(lián)系起來(lái)。其中，形式和過(guò)程也可以被理解為空間和時(shí)間。因此，我們說(shuō)服了學(xué)校的教授去聘請(qǐng)他（來(lái)學(xué)校授課）。我起初接受的是建筑學(xué)教育，真正成為一名風(fēng)景園林師是很久以后了。受他啟發(fā)，我在設(shè)計(jì)中從來(lái)不只關(guān)注形式，而是同時(shí)關(guān)注形式背后的過(guò)程。這顆種子在學(xué)生時(shí)代萌芽，貫穿了我的職業(yè)生涯。

在今天，范 魯文已經(jīng)快要被遺忘了。即使在荷蘭也是如此。從某種意義上來(lái)說(shuō)，任何不用英語(yǔ)發(fā)表的學(xué)術(shù)著作都會(huì)逐漸“消失”。如果你用諸如荷蘭語(yǔ)這樣的小語(yǔ)種寫作，你就成了這一語(yǔ)言區(qū)的囚徒。這對(duì)于發(fā)表研究的科學(xué)家本人和后世同一領(lǐng)域的研究者都是災(zāi)難性的。因此，我們認(rèn)為紀(jì)念他的最好方式就是用英文出版他的著作。于是我們有了《克里斯 范 魯文的理論：一些關(guān)鍵要素》。

LA：您在20世紀(jì)70年代提出的“框架理論”在今天看依然獨(dú)特。它不同于常見(jiàn)的藍(lán)圖式規(guī)劃，既提供了必要的規(guī)劃控制，又保留了足夠的靈活性。您是否能為我們介紹它誕生的故事呢？

DS：我必須首先澄清的是，“框架理論”不是我個(gè)人的貢獻(xiàn)，而是一群專家的智慧結(jié)晶。這一理論是針對(duì)荷蘭當(dāng)時(shí)面臨的一個(gè)嚴(yán)重問(wèn)題提出的。在荷蘭，改變大地景觀的主要力量并非城市化進(jìn)程，而是農(nóng)業(yè)現(xiàn)代化（圖3）。當(dāng)我在國(guó)家森林署工作的時(shí)候，我們遇到了一個(gè)困境：每一次，我們都跟隨農(nóng)業(yè)的發(fā)展制定空間規(guī)劃，然而，（由于農(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展太快）每次規(guī)劃完成時(shí)，留給農(nóng)業(yè)的空間已然不夠了。于是我們又要重新調(diào)整，而每一次調(diào)整都是以清除林地、水渠等景觀要素為代價(jià)，換取大規(guī)模、同質(zhì)化的農(nóng)業(yè)用地。我們十分擔(dān)心最后會(huì)失去（除了農(nóng)業(yè)以外的）所有的景觀要素。

針對(duì)這一問(wèn)題，荷蘭希望我們能制定新的發(fā)展策略。從空間動(dòng)態(tài)變化的角度，荷蘭的地理景觀由兩種完全異質(zhì)的景觀類型組成：一方面，我們有飛速變化的農(nóng)業(yè)景觀，它持續(xù)產(chǎn)生著顛覆性的影響；另一方面，我們有諸如森林、自然保護(hù)區(qū)、水源地等相對(duì)穩(wěn)定的景觀，它們需要較長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間發(fā)展、定型。我們需要同時(shí)適應(yīng)這2種完全不同景觀?！翱蚣芾碚摗彼龅木褪菍⒍叻珠_（圖4）。我們?yōu)樯帧⒑恿鬟@樣的“慢”景觀設(shè)計(jì)了穩(wěn)定的空間框架，并通過(guò)政府力量進(jìn)行管理。除這個(gè)框架以外，我們?yōu)檗r(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展留足了靈活的、大尺度的地塊。

這一概念在當(dāng)今的城市中也有用武之地——你沒(méi)必要設(shè)計(jì)得事無(wú)巨細(xì)。比方說(shuō)，我們可以為交通基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施、水利系統(tǒng)等相對(duì)固定的元素設(shè)計(jì)一個(gè)盡可能完善的框架，至于其他功能，留出發(fā)展彈性即可。

LA：盡管“框架理論”已經(jīng)被提出幾十年了，今天的人們?nèi)匀辉谧鏊{(lán)圖式規(guī)劃。在您看來(lái)，這種做法是否存在問(wèn)題？

DS：藍(lán)圖式規(guī)劃非常過(guò)時(shí)，但的確仍未退出歷史舞臺(tái)。它其實(shí)是無(wú)效的，因?yàn)槟銢](méi)辦法對(duì)所有的事情進(jìn)行規(guī)劃。美國(guó)拳王邁克 泰森有句話說(shuō)得妙：每個(gè)人都有一個(gè)計(jì)劃——直到他被打倒。這也是總體規(guī)劃的困境——當(dāng)你的設(shè)計(jì)考慮了每個(gè)細(xì)節(jié)時(shí)，一旦有些事沒(méi)有按照預(yù)期發(fā)展，或者外部條件發(fā)生變化，你就被困在了一個(gè)沒(méi)法適應(yīng)新變化的規(guī)劃里。

因此我認(rèn)為藍(lán)圖式規(guī)劃確實(shí)是個(gè)問(wèn)題。我很喜歡彼得 波塞爾曼②的一句話：“如果你想要犯錯(cuò)誤，那你得用一種能被彌補(bǔ)的方式去犯”。不過(guò)，在一個(gè)嚴(yán)格的總體規(guī)劃中，所有元素都是緊密關(guān)聯(lián)的，牽一發(fā)而動(dòng)全身。因此，這樣的規(guī)劃一旦出錯(cuò)就無(wú)從補(bǔ)救。我想，對(duì)今天的風(fēng)景園林師和城市規(guī)劃師來(lái)說(shuō)，最重要的任務(wù)之一就是生態(tài)系統(tǒng)修復(fù)了，或者我把它叫作重新“編織”城市的“地毯”（圖5）。我們已經(jīng)沒(méi)有太多空間可以擴(kuò)張了，我們必須得調(diào)整現(xiàn)有的空間。這相當(dāng)復(fù)雜，因?yàn)槊科椒矫椎耐恋厣隙加屑榷ǖ睦嫦嚓P(guān)方。這比作一張漂亮的渲染效果圖要困難得多，它不僅僅是關(guān)于要新建什么，更是關(guān)于要“除掉”什么。這是你們這一代人面臨的挑戰(zhàn)，希望你們成功。

LA：我注意到您后來(lái)的作品與“框架理論”有著微妙的聯(lián)系。比如，在“沙引擎”項(xiàng)目中，您“設(shè)計(jì)”了一種機(jī)制，而非造型。您能否為我們講講“沙引擎”背后的故事？

DS：和之前一樣，我覺(jué)得把“沙引擎”說(shuō)成是我的作品太不公平，它是包括科學(xué)家、工程師、生態(tài)學(xué)家、風(fēng)景園林師等通力合作的結(jié)果。

1 德克·西蒙斯1972年與荷蘭最有影響力的生態(tài)學(xué)家克里斯·范·魯文進(jìn)行野外調(diào)查，此行的目的是尋找一種名為小貝母（Fritillaria meleagris）的植物Dirk Sijmons on a field trip in 1972 with Chris van Leeuwen, the Netherland’s most influential ecologist, searching for Fritillaria meleagris

2 克里斯·范·魯文于1971年繪制的反映植被變化時(shí)空關(guān)系的圖解：根據(jù)熱力學(xué)第二定律，變化帶來(lái)熵增。作用于植被的變化過(guò)程意味著植被總體多樣性逐漸降低。同理，自然保護(hù)未必是不干預(yù)，而是通過(guò)干預(yù)維持原狀The basic relations between spatial and temporal processes in vegetation

3-1 1850年前后荷蘭巴徹姆地區(qū)的地形圖，圖中顯示大片的野生石楠草地被用于牧羊。這種情況是由于天然肥料的缺乏所導(dǎo)致的Topographic Map of the surroundings of Barchem (Netherlands) round 1850 showing large heathlands being used collectively for grazing sheep. Shortage of natural fertilizers shaped the farming ecology and the landscape

3-2 1900年前后荷蘭巴徹姆地區(qū)的地形圖，圖中表明人工肥料的發(fā)明使得完全開墾石楠草地成為可能。同時(shí)，景觀單元的尺度在變小，因?yàn)檗r(nóng)場(chǎng)的尺度變小了Topographic Map of the surroundings of Barchem (Netherlands) round 1900 showing how the introduction of artificial fertilizers made it possible to reclaim most of the heathlands. A small scale landscape emerged because the farms were also relatively small

在荷蘭，做項(xiàng)目的傳統(tǒng)幾乎和在中國(guó)做項(xiàng)目的傳統(tǒng)正相反。在中國(guó)，或許你的設(shè)計(jì)還沒(méi)結(jié)束，項(xiàng)目就已經(jīng)開始施工了。而在荷蘭，一個(gè)項(xiàng)目在真正執(zhí)行前要經(jīng)歷漫長(zhǎng)的討論和協(xié)商。關(guān)于我們的海岸地區(qū)的規(guī)劃有無(wú)數(shù)個(gè)，特別是荷蘭角港到海牙這一段。每一個(gè)提案的誕生都會(huì)讓人們熱情高漲，然而一年以后，所有人都開始擔(dān)心諸如預(yù)算之類的問(wèn)題。幾年以后，人們的熱情就消退了。再過(guò)幾年，又一個(gè)新的提案出現(xiàn)了，輪回再次上演。

因此，我們對(duì)雄心勃勃的大計(jì)劃沒(méi)有興趣。我們更想為未來(lái)做個(gè)實(shí)驗(yàn)，或許它會(huì)成為大項(xiàng)目的先導(dǎo)。從管理的角度來(lái)說(shuō)，我們的確視角不同。此外，我們所做的不是用傳統(tǒng)的工程手段加固海岸，而是讓自然過(guò)程來(lái)幫我們實(shí)現(xiàn)相同的安全目標(biāo)。讓北海的洋流侵蝕“沙引擎”，并把沙子帶到海岸線上脆弱的部位，的確是很巧妙的辦法。只有通過(guò)先進(jìn)的計(jì)算模擬，我們才有可能這么做。很多人認(rèn)為我們的做法會(huì)以損失所有的沙子告終。不過(guò)，我在代爾夫特理工大學(xué)的同事馬塞爾 史蒂夫教授通過(guò)精確的模擬發(fā)現(xiàn)，絕大部分沙子會(huì)被強(qiáng)烈的水流帶回陸地加固海岸，只有極少數(shù)沙子會(huì)流失（圖6、7）。

“沙引擎”的位置是經(jīng)過(guò)精心計(jì)算后選擇的，所以這或許不是一個(gè)通用的海岸加固的方法。這個(gè)項(xiàng)目中可以推而廣之的方法是利用自然過(guò)程替代使用大量混凝土的傳統(tǒng)工程手段來(lái)實(shí)現(xiàn)目標(biāo)。這也是我所感興趣的部分。

LA：您如何看待景觀都市主義？您認(rèn)為景觀都市主義和荷蘭本土的理論之間是否有聯(lián)系？

DS：我對(duì)景觀都市主義很感興趣，首先，它讓我放眼關(guān)注世界各地根植于當(dāng)?shù)氐乩砭坝^的人類聚居地，而不是把目光局限在荷蘭境內(nèi)。查爾斯 瓦爾德海姆曾經(jīng)提到，景觀過(guò)程既可類比城市化進(jìn)程，也可作為城市化的范本。這也讓我很欣賞，因?yàn)檫@種看待城市的方式是基于過(guò)程而不是基于形式的。此外，很多規(guī)劃師通常會(huì)關(guān)注城市里那些充滿活力的高密度地區(qū)，然而，我們必須承認(rèn)，在很多地區(qū)，城市密度正在降低。對(duì)于這些收縮的區(qū)域存在的問(wèn)題，我們同樣需要可持續(xù)的解決策略。（對(duì)城市而言）集聚化發(fā)展并非萬(wàn)靈藥。讓我們把視角放在一個(gè)更長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間維度上——300年以后，你將如何對(duì)待這些半城市化、半農(nóng)耕甚至半荒野的地區(qū)？這些地方和城市一樣有趣，這里發(fā)生的事情或許還能啟迪生活在高密度地區(qū)的人們：例如，為了過(guò)更加可持續(xù)的生活，你可以為自己生產(chǎn)食物和能源（圖8）。

LA：您曾在荷蘭森林署工作了大概10年，并于2004年被任命為荷蘭國(guó)家風(fēng)景園林師。在此期間，您是否參與過(guò)政策制定？

DS：我通過(guò)遞交提案和建議的方式參與政策制定，這是一種非常間接的方式。

當(dāng)我在森林署工作的時(shí)候，我和我的同事致力于“發(fā)展”自然。在荷蘭的傳統(tǒng)觀念中，自然只是農(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展的副產(chǎn)物。我們所有的土地都是開墾過(guò)的，我們幾乎沒(méi)有任何原生的自然。荷蘭景觀中最耀眼的特征都來(lái)源于農(nóng)業(yè)。比如，我們有大片的草場(chǎng)，因此吸引了大量生活在草地的鳥類。但是，就像我之前提到的，由于農(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展太快，這些自然特征逐漸消失，一些物種瀕臨滅絕。在20世紀(jì)80年代，自然幾乎已被宣告死亡。

4-1框架理論圖示：將相對(duì)靜態(tài)的景觀要素（林地、自然保護(hù)地、水源地）組合成框架，同時(shí)為農(nóng)業(yè)等動(dòng)態(tài)變化的要素創(chuàng)造更大尺度、更靈活的開放空間Casco concept. A spatial example of how to consolidate landscape elements to a much more robust frame work for the low dynamic land uses (nature,forestry, drinking water production) on the one side and scaling up (and clearing) for a more flexible work space for the high dynamic land uses (agriculture)

5 “重新編織城市之毯” 荷蘭南部布拉邦特地區(qū)規(guī)劃。2014年鹿特丹建筑雙年展“城市與自然”參展項(xiàng)目，實(shí)物為3.5m×9m的巨型掛毯Reweaving the Urban Carpet. The plan for Brabantstad, an urban landscape in the south of the Netherlands for the IABR Urban-by-Nature in 2014 was literally presented as an enormous tapestry of 3.5x9 meters

在這樣的背景下，東瓦德湖是絕對(duì)的意外發(fā)現(xiàn)。它本是一塊圩田，按計(jì)劃應(yīng)成為工業(yè)區(qū)，不過(guò)人們沒(méi)有及時(shí)排干這里的水。令人驚奇的是，自然“回歸”了這片沼澤地。成百上千的鵝開始在這里繁殖，而從19世紀(jì)中葉以來(lái)就已經(jīng)沒(méi)有鵝在荷蘭自然繁殖的記錄了。這證明荷蘭的自然絕沒(méi)有失去生命力。只要給予合適的條件，自然將展示它驚人的力量。東瓦德湖的奇跡鼓舞了大量的創(chuàng)新（圖9）。我們的“鸛計(jì)劃”和框架理論都受到了它的影響（圖10）。后來(lái)的“給河流以空間”等項(xiàng)目也間接地受到了它的影響。

當(dāng)我擔(dān)任首席風(fēng)景園林師時(shí)，我更多的是一名顧問(wèn)，而不是有什么實(shí)權(quán)。比如，在制定“給河流以空間”計(jì)劃時(shí)，我促成決策者將空間質(zhì)量列為項(xiàng)目的第二目標(biāo)。你可以為確保風(fēng)景園林師日后有機(jī)會(huì)介入特別的項(xiàng)目打下基礎(chǔ)，這是顧問(wèn)的角色之一。同時(shí)，我也給出建議。我們正處在能源革命的起點(diǎn)，從空間的角度來(lái)說(shuō)，這意味著我們得從廣袤的地表上獲取“稀薄”的能源（風(fēng)能和太陽(yáng)能）。在未來(lái)，我們的地平線上或許會(huì)密密麻麻排滿了風(fēng)力發(fā)電機(jī)，它們是如此醒目，不管你在哪里都無(wú)法忽略。針對(duì)這個(gè)問(wèn)題，我精心撰寫了一份報(bào)告，闡釋我們?nèi)绾螒?yīng)對(duì)這些“怪獸”。這也是我關(guān)注能源革命的開始[1]。

LA：當(dāng)您擔(dān)任首席風(fēng)景園林師時(shí)，您主要的關(guān)注點(diǎn)是什么？在我們面臨的諸多問(wèn)題中，您如何確定哪些更重要呢？

4-2 在框架理論中，有多種方式讓“靜態(tài)”的林地等和“動(dòng)態(tài)”的農(nóng)業(yè)用地水利系統(tǒng)互相獨(dú)立，每種方式都可以暗示或加強(qiáng)二者的空間分隔Casco Concept. Hydrological separation of the two types of land use is possible in different ways, each indicating or strengthening the spatial separation

DS：我對(duì)能夠影響景觀變化的過(guò)程和力量始終抱有濃厚興趣。而好奇心會(huì)帶我發(fā)現(xiàn)那些關(guān)鍵的問(wèn)題。比如，我曾對(duì)旅游業(yè)進(jìn)行研究，因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)旅游業(yè)深刻地影響著歐洲的景觀。你如何才能讓這一產(chǎn)業(yè)不僅僅去蠶食它所處的環(huán)境，并動(dòng)搖它賴以生存的經(jīng)濟(jì)基礎(chǔ)呢？我同時(shí)關(guān)注特定類型的休閑業(yè)。例如我注意到，在荷蘭，越來(lái)越多的馬場(chǎng)正取代農(nóng)場(chǎng)。我認(rèn)為這就是一種改變景觀的力量。那么，我們就得去跟馬場(chǎng)的主人和騎馬的人去探討，我們?cè)趺床拍芙⒓让烙^又可持續(xù)的馬廄和圍欄。我對(duì)于發(fā)電和水管理的興趣是出于同樣的道理。我們的景觀從未停止改變，它像一面鏡子反映著社會(huì)的變化。所以我對(duì)單純的保護(hù)性計(jì)劃始終提不起興趣，因?yàn)槟銢](méi)法讓世界停止運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)。與其嘗試封禁改變的力量，不如同它們進(jìn)行一場(chǎng)“柔道”。其中的要訣是，讓這些力量為景觀做有意義的貢獻(xiàn)，并把它們同景觀遺產(chǎn)聯(lián)系起來(lái)。

我對(duì)景觀歷史也很感興趣。伊爾可 馬紹爾③的研究表明，用于制作藍(lán)色染料的植物，深刻地改變了德國(guó)圖靈根地區(qū)的景觀。如果這么小的東西都能對(duì)景觀產(chǎn)生巨大影響，那么作為設(shè)計(jì)師，你可以追蹤它們的痕跡，并嘗試駕馭它們。這是一種很有趣地看待我們學(xué)科的方式。

如果我必須列一個(gè)優(yōu)先級(jí)列表的話，對(duì)荷蘭來(lái)說(shuō)，最重要的無(wú)疑是確保我們的國(guó)家仍然在物質(zhì)空間中“存在”……這就包括了水利系統(tǒng)、防洪設(shè)施等。第二重要的是基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施，既包括為人、貨物而建設(shè)的硬質(zhì)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施，也包括為動(dòng)植物而設(shè)的生態(tài)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施。至于城市中具體的功能性用地、度假區(qū)等，則排在第三位。

如今，這些問(wèn)題無(wú)疑與氣候變化、生物多樣性減少有著緊密聯(lián)系。這讓我十分擔(dān)心。我很喜歡的一個(gè)詞叫作“化石能源表現(xiàn)主義”，它代表了我們現(xiàn)在得益于化石能源能做的所有事情，而這個(gè)時(shí)期會(huì)很短暫。從阿姆斯特丹到意大利的航班最低只需要40歐元，這簡(jiǎn)直比我待在家里還要便宜。它之所以如此廉價(jià)，是因?yàn)樽远?zhàn)以來(lái)航空燃油就被禁止征稅。但是，航空的鼎盛時(shí)期或許終將結(jié)束。氣候變化和生物多樣性銳減要求我們重新審視我們的生活方式。說(shuō)到這里就必須提到“人類紀(jì)”了——屬于人類的地質(zhì)紀(jì)元。一方面，這意味著我們?nèi)祟愂堑厍蛏系摹拔烈呱铩?；另一方面，我們是很特別的一種，因?yàn)槲覀兛梢苑此嘉覀兯魉鶠榈暮蠊?。我們不僅需要中和環(huán)境變化的消極影響，還得想方設(shè)法去除掉帶來(lái)影響的原因——造成溫室氣體排放的原因、造成動(dòng)植物瀕危的原因，等等。

6 這些早期草圖展示了在海中特定位置放置的沙子，可以被洋流帶到海岸線上的其他位置，從而起到加固海岸的作用。這種“自然建造法”可作為挖沙船的替代選項(xiàng)These first sketches show how an overdose of sand in the form of a dune acts as a constant feeder of sand for the coastal stream that will transport the sand to the North and thereby nourishes the weak spots of the Dutch coast.This ‘building with nature’ offers an alternative for pump dredger ships

LA：您有多年的教學(xué)經(jīng)歷，并參與創(chuàng)立了代爾夫特理工大學(xué)的風(fēng)景園林系。作為教授，您想要教給年輕人的最重要的事是什么呢？

DS：我最想告訴年輕人的是，只要我們用心對(duì)待，所有景觀中的“運(yùn)動(dòng)”都可以為景觀帶來(lái)積極貢獻(xiàn)。當(dāng)我受邀參與蒙特利爾世界設(shè)計(jì)峰會(huì)時(shí)，我開了一個(gè)玩笑：如果你把問(wèn)題丟給風(fēng)景園林師，我們的答案常常是“公共空間”?！鞍褑?wèn)題變成公園”雖然是個(gè)玩笑，不過(guò)也揭示了風(fēng)景園林學(xué)科的核心。這是我們?yōu)檫@個(gè)社會(huì)帶來(lái)的貢獻(xiàn)。

不過(guò)，有些問(wèn)題一開始并沒(méi)有明確的客戶，也不會(huì)自發(fā)地變成項(xiàng)目。例如，通過(guò)比較城市化發(fā)展區(qū)域及世界生物多樣性地圖，我們可以發(fā)現(xiàn)絕大多數(shù)生物多樣性熱點(diǎn)也正是最密集的人類聚居區(qū)（圖11）。如何才能應(yīng)對(duì)這種尺度的問(wèn)題呢？必須迂回前進(jìn)。在這個(gè)例子中，你或許可以吸引世界自然保護(hù)組織或者聯(lián)合國(guó)的注意，讓他們把這一問(wèn)題提上各國(guó)政府的日程。最后，這個(gè)問(wèn)題或許會(huì)轉(zhuǎn)化為地方政府的自然保護(hù)計(jì)劃。等到這個(gè)時(shí)候，我們風(fēng)景園林師才有了實(shí)際的客戶和項(xiàng)目。這整個(gè)過(guò)程或許需要12個(gè)步驟，歷經(jīng)10年才能完成。如果想要開始這個(gè)過(guò)程，我們只有通過(guò)設(shè)計(jì)結(jié)合研究的方式。這或許是我們風(fēng)景園林師對(duì)于世界環(huán)境問(wèn)題最有價(jià)值的貢獻(xiàn)。學(xué)生必須被給予探索的自由，去研究這些沒(méi)有客戶的問(wèn)題，而不是只做一些類似商業(yè)項(xiàng)目的設(shè)計(jì)。這是我想要教給年輕人的關(guān)鍵一課。而設(shè)計(jì)研究只能在大學(xué)里生根發(fā)芽，并借由競(jìng)賽、展覽、會(huì)議等為人所知，喚起公眾的覺(jué)醒。比如，如果通過(guò)三維圖紙向政客展示珠江三角洲海平面上升的后果，他們立即就會(huì)明白這個(gè)問(wèn)題有多嚴(yán)重。設(shè)計(jì)結(jié)合研究是風(fēng)景園林學(xué)科的實(shí)驗(yàn)室，我們的未來(lái)就藏在其中。

LA：您近期關(guān)注哪些問(wèn)題？為什么？在您看來(lái)，在接下來(lái)的10年中，風(fēng)景園林學(xué)面臨的最重要的議題是什么？

DS：我很關(guān)心城市化和農(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展對(duì)氣候變化和生物多樣性的綜合影響，生物多樣性的問(wèn)題甚至比氣候變化還要嚴(yán)峻。此外，自從遞交了關(guān)于北海風(fēng)電的提案后，我在關(guān)于能源變革的討論中也一直很活躍（圖12）。雖然我已經(jīng)到了領(lǐng)撫恤金的年紀(jì)了，我仍然非常忙碌。

我在我的講座《接觸，對(duì)比和交融》中提到，自然環(huán)境和城市化在不同尺度上有不同的交互機(jī)制，相應(yīng)地，風(fēng)景園林師和規(guī)劃師可以用不同的方法去處理二者之間的關(guān)系。我們必須注意的是，“自然”其實(shí)一直都存在于我們的城市中。我們使用的材料，我們建造的工程結(jié)構(gòu)和水網(wǎng)系統(tǒng)本質(zhì)上都是一種自然的表達(dá)。只要我們對(duì)這些建設(shè)處理得當(dāng)，我們就已經(jīng)可以獲得額外的好處了。不過(guò)，二者沖突的核心還是生物多樣性豐富的地區(qū)與指數(shù)增長(zhǎng)的城市化區(qū)域之間的重合。要解決這個(gè)問(wèn)題，建立嚴(yán)格的自然保護(hù)區(qū)的傳統(tǒng)手段或許仍然是最可靠的。只有這樣，由多種生物構(gòu)成的生態(tài)網(wǎng)絡(luò)才能幸存。這要求我們借助生態(tài)學(xué)的幫助，在合適的地方建立合理的連接，給予侵蝕、沉積、植被演替、動(dòng)物捕食等自然過(guò)程發(fā)生的空間。如果這實(shí)在太過(guò)困難，重塑我們的城市也是一種選擇。我們可以在城市中建立小規(guī)模的自然保護(hù)地。世界上的很多城市本來(lái)就建立在古老的農(nóng)田之上，這樣的地區(qū)本來(lái)也需要我們采取不同的策略。我認(rèn)為，我們?cè)鴵碛械年P(guān)于城市和自然關(guān)系的原型，對(duì)于如今的城市環(huán)境仍然很有借鑒意義?；▓@城市，衛(wèi)星城市和廣畝城市可以被轉(zhuǎn)譯為對(duì)比、接觸和融合的策略。

關(guān)于極端氣候帶來(lái)的問(wèn)題，在荷蘭，我們現(xiàn)在成立了“氣候圓桌”。這個(gè)組織由社會(huì)中的5個(gè)主要組成部分（工業(yè)、城市建設(shè)、農(nóng)業(yè)及土地管理、能源、交通）構(gòu)成，試圖通過(guò)采用清潔能源以及降低溫室氣體排放來(lái)減輕氣候變化的影響（圖13）。我想中國(guó)應(yīng)該也正竭盡全力達(dá)到《巴黎協(xié)定》中所指定的目標(biāo)。能源是其中的核心問(wèn)題之一——天然氣是我們從石油轉(zhuǎn)向可再生能源的跳板嗎？它將對(duì)我們的社會(huì)產(chǎn)生怎樣的影響？這些問(wèn)題帶我們回到了我們事務(wù)所成立的起點(diǎn)：關(guān)注農(nóng)業(yè)的未來(lái)。在“框架理論”中，我們把農(nóng)業(yè)用地和自然地分而治之，但是現(xiàn)在情況不同了，因?yàn)檗r(nóng)業(yè)在氣候政策中扮演了重要角色。糞便處理帶來(lái)的溫室氣體排放，反芻動(dòng)物的新陳代謝，泥炭地的水管理……都會(huì)影響氣候變化。甚至就算是熱帶地區(qū)的土地功能變更，都能影響荷蘭的食品工業(yè)。下面的數(shù)字可以讓你對(duì)農(nóng)業(yè)的地位有個(gè)直觀印象：陸地上總生物質(zhì)能的95%是人工飼養(yǎng)的動(dòng)物；25%的初級(jí)生產(chǎn)（地球上所有生物通過(guò)光合作用積累的能量）被人類消耗（圖14）。這樣的比例已經(jīng)到了聳人聽聞的程度。有人認(rèn)為就算地球上再多十億人口我們也能輕松供養(yǎng)，這種想法是很危險(xiǎn)的。因?yàn)檫@太難了。從這個(gè)意義上說(shuō)，少吃點(diǎn)肉無(wú)論如何都是好主意，它能直接影響氣候變化。不過(guò)我并沒(méi)有看到任何跡象表明全球肉類消費(fèi)在減少。人類的生活方式對(duì)這個(gè)星球來(lái)說(shuō)是一種掠奪。

這2個(gè)問(wèn)題是我最近主要擔(dān)憂的事情。我向來(lái)是個(gè)樂(lè)觀主義者，而我現(xiàn)在的立場(chǎng)是“終局樂(lè)觀主義”————我相信最終我們會(huì)解決所有問(wèn)題，但通向終點(diǎn)的道路大概充滿了艱難險(xiǎn)阻。由于氣候變化和生物多樣性減少，我們會(huì)面臨很多危機(jī)，諸如洪水、移民，甚至饑荒。我們必須全副武裝，以應(yīng)對(duì)艱難的日子。不過(guò)，我心中充滿希望。希望和樂(lè)觀有著微妙而重要的區(qū)別。樂(lè)觀主義者在某種程度上是保守的，因?yàn)樗麄冋J(rèn)為現(xiàn)狀可以接受，我們總能從中趟出一條路。而希望意味著就算環(huán)境冷酷，我們?nèi)詰延星靶械牧α俊?/p>

8 東沃德，一個(gè)非?！安缓商m”的項(xiàng)目。在這里，每戶人家拿到不同大小的土地，用于建造房屋，并且與鄰居協(xié)商修建道路、給排水系統(tǒng)等。此外，這里的居民被要求必須在自己的土地上發(fā)展都市農(nóng)業(yè)。圖中顯示的是東沃德的一部分，這里的住房數(shù)量在接下來(lái)的幾年里將達(dá)到15 000棟Oosterwold, a very Un-Dutch project. Lots of different sizes are given out to citizens, not only to build their own houses, but also together with their neighbours arrange the collective facilities such as roads and sewer systems. Urban agriculture on your own lot is mandatory. (situation in 2018 of a small part of Oosterwold that is to grow to 15.000 houses in the coming years)

7“沙引擎”實(shí)施后的前4年里（2011 2015）的定時(shí)影像。同挖沙船相比，這種加固海岸的方式比較慢，但可以使侵蝕、沉積、演替等自然過(guò)程逐漸發(fā)生Time lapse photo’s of the Sand Engine taken during the first four years after its execution (2011 2015). The advantage of this slow way of beach nourishment is that natural processes such as erosion,sedimentation and succession are given time and space

LA：您為觀測(cè)城市中的環(huán)境質(zhì)量制作了特別的地衣鏡。對(duì)絕大多數(shù)風(fēng)景園林師來(lái)說(shuō)，他們的大部分項(xiàng)目都在城市中，而很少有機(jī)會(huì)在全球視野下思考問(wèn)題。對(duì)于以中小尺度項(xiàng)目為主要工作的人們，您有沒(méi)有什么具體建議？

DS：我的內(nèi)置LED燈光的透鏡確實(shí)是為觀察地衣設(shè)計(jì)的。這些頑強(qiáng)的小生命讓我深深著迷，因?yàn)樗鼈冏陨砭托纬闪嗣阅愕木坝^（圖15）。我從幾年前開始對(duì)他們感興趣。在繁華的商業(yè)街上，觀察它們是一種帶有冥想意味的自然體驗(yàn)。當(dāng)然，地衣也是環(huán)境質(zhì)量的指示劑。它們對(duì)城市交通和火力發(fā)電所產(chǎn)生的二氧化硫（SO2）尤其敏感。我建議人們趕緊開始關(guān)注身邊的地衣，不論是不是生活在北京這樣的大城市。

LA：最后，您是否關(guān)注過(guò)中國(guó)在發(fā)生什么事情？您對(duì)中國(guó)風(fēng)景園林師有沒(méi)有什么特別的忠告？

DS：我只是一個(gè)遠(yuǎn)距離旁觀者，并未親歷中國(guó)的種種，所以我的想法或許未必可靠。中國(guó)人在工程領(lǐng)域的才能有目共睹。在過(guò)去的幾十年里，中國(guó)工程項(xiàng)目的發(fā)展規(guī)模十分龐大。然而，同工程上的成就相比，中國(guó)人對(duì)生態(tài)的關(guān)注和了解或許慢了半拍。這個(gè)差距必須被消除。風(fēng)景園林學(xué)正是能為此效力的學(xué)科之一，因?yàn)槲覀冋驹诠こ虒W(xué)和自然科學(xué)的交點(diǎn)上。除了這一點(diǎn)，我們還需要對(duì)城市化保持批判性思考。因此我認(rèn)為中國(guó)風(fēng)景園林師的影響是至關(guān)重要的。你們可以在項(xiàng)目中充分應(yīng)用自然的知識(shí)，這絕不是為了限制設(shè)計(jì)，而是為了給設(shè)計(jì)賦能（圖16）。

注釋：

① 克里斯 范 魯文（1920 2005），荷蘭著名生態(tài)學(xué)家。他的著作為國(guó)家層面的可持續(xù)空間規(guī)劃奠定了基礎(chǔ)，現(xiàn)在荷蘭政策中的主要生態(tài)網(wǎng)絡(luò)即是源于他的思想。

② 彼得 波塞爾曼，加州大學(xué)伯克利分校教授，在全球范圍內(nèi)參與規(guī)劃和設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目。他的主要著作包括《城市變遷：理解城市形態(tài)與設(shè)計(jì)》《場(chǎng)所代表：城市設(shè)計(jì)的現(xiàn)實(shí)》。

③ 伊爾可 馬紹爾執(zhí)教于德國(guó)埃爾福特應(yīng)用技術(shù)大學(xué)，她主要研究文化景觀與區(qū)域景觀。

④ 圖1由基斯·道維斯汀攝；圖2由克里斯 范 魯文繪制；圖3來(lái)自荷蘭國(guó)家測(cè)繪局；圖4由凱克斯特拉·弗里蘭特1982年繪制；圖5來(lái)源于荷蘭AWB公司，LOLA景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所，弗洛里斯 阿克瑪?shù)鲁鞘幸?guī)劃事務(wù)所；圖6來(lái)源于H+N+S景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所，2009；圖7來(lái)源于荷蘭國(guó)家水利與基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施部；圖8來(lái)源于Municipality of Almere；圖9由德克 西蒙斯攝；圖10來(lái)源于迪克 德 伯豪因，迪克 哈姆豪斯，勞德維克 范 紐文豪斯，威廉 歐福馬斯，德克 西蒙斯和弗蘭斯 維拉；圖11來(lái)源于理查德 維勒，克萊爾·霍克&黃杰（音譯）《世界盡頭地圖集》。賓夕法尼亞大學(xué)，費(fèi)城，2017。圖12由馬特·哈耶爾，德克 西蒙斯，H+N+S景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所，湯斯敦能源網(wǎng)絡(luò)公司，伊可菲斯能源咨詢公司為2016年鹿特丹雙年展制作；圖13由H+N+S景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所根據(jù)世界資源組織的數(shù)據(jù)制；圖14由H+N+S景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所制，數(shù)據(jù)來(lái)源于《收割生物圈》，法斯拉夫 斯米爾，2015；圖15-1由安娜瑪麗 貝茲攝；圖15-2由德克 西蒙斯攝；圖16來(lái)源于伯勞虎德地產(chǎn)。

Dirk Sijmons is an internationally notable Dutch landscape architect, who has rich working and teaching experience. He used to be the head of the Landscape Architecture Department of the Dutch Forestry Commission and he was appointed as Chief State Landscape Architect of the Netherlands in 2004. He co-founded H+N+S Landscape Architects, where he engaged in renowned projects like Room For The River and the Sand Motor. He was also one of the founders of the Landscape Architecture Diploma Program in Delft University of Technology. In 2017, he was announced as the winner of Sir Geoffrey Jellicoe Award. Thanks to his visit to Beijing, Landscape Architecture Journal is honored to have the chance to introduce his notions to our readers. Here in after is the full text of our interview.

LA： Landscape Architecture Journal

DS： Dirk Sijmons

LA： Before we come to your own works, I'd like to trace back to the seeds in your college years. When you were an architecture student in Delft, you created your own diploma program called ‘environmental planning’,and you had a particular interest in Chris van Leeuwen’s①theories(Fig. 1, 2). And I do see Van Leeuwen's clues in your later practice.Why his works were interesting for you at that time? How did it influence you later?

9 東瓦德湖是一片自然發(fā)展區(qū)，位于荷蘭佛列夫蘭省兩個(gè)城市之間。這里的特別之處是大型食草動(dòng)物種群，主要有柯尼克馬（圖中所示）、赫克牛、灰雁和紅鹿Oostvaardersplassen. A nature development area between two cities in the province of Flevoland where large herbivores were introduced. Photo taken from the train. The main roles are being fulfilled by Konicks horses (photo),Heck cows, Greylag Geese and Red Deers

DS： When you look at van Leeuwen’s work,you have to situate that in its time. We made our own study program at the beginning of the 1970s,which was the time of the environmental wave. His work was so influential and inspirational for me because for the first time I saw somebody who had an ecological concept that connected pattern and process. In another word, space and time. Then we convinced our professors that they should hire him.I was trained as an architect in the beginning, and I became a landscape architect much later. Inspired by him, I do not only design the patterns, but also look at the process behind the patterns, from then on to the rest of my career.

Van Leeuwen is almost forgotten today, even in the Netherlands. In a way, everything that is not published in English gets ‘invisible’. If you publish your work in a small language like Dutch, you became the prisoner of the language area. That’s tragic for both scientists who wrote their works and following people who can’t get access to previous researches. Therefore we thought the best way to honor him is to publish his work in English: The theory of Chris van Leeuwen: Some important elements.

LA： The ‘Casco Concept’ you proposed in the 1970s is still unique today. It was not blueprint planning. It created great feasibility yet provided necessary control. Can you tell us the story about how it was born and developed?

DS： Firstly I must say that ‘Casco Concept’is not my own personal contribution, it was made by a group of specialists. It was the answer to a big problem in the Netherlands back to at that time. In the Dutch context, the force that changes the landscape is not the urbanization process, but the modernization of agriculture (Fig. 3). When I worked at the State Forestry Service, we confronted a dilemma: we made landscape plans which went along with and gave form to the modernization of agriculture. But time and time again, as soon as the projects were finished, the working space for agriculture was already too small in scale. And the whole story started again by removing landscape elements like forests, hedges, and ditches to make room for homogeneous large-scale agricultural landscape. We were afraid that this would leave us empty handed with no landscape elements at all.

We were asked by the Ministry of Agriculture to devise a new strategy to tackle this problem.If we look at the Dutch landscape, we have two absolutely different types of land use in terms of spatial dynamics. On the one hand, we have this ever-evolving agriculture, which is turning everything around. On the other hand, we have land uses which need time to develop, including forestry, nature conservation, the source of drinking water, etc. Thus we need to facilitate both the dynamic part of the landscape and the stable landscape part. What Casco Concept does is to take the two things apart (Fig. 4). We made a framework consisting of the stable parts, and the government had the responsibility to take care of that. For the rest, we have flexible large-scale working spaces where agriculture can develop.

That concept can also be projected to present urban landscapes. You don’t have to design everything. For instance, we can make a really good plan by fixing and designing only the stable structures: the water systems and the traffic infrastructure. For the rest, we keep it more flexible.

LA： Although ‘Casco Concept’ was invented decades ago, people are still making blueprint master plans today. Do you think that is a problem?

DS： Blueprint plans are so out of date but they are still being made today. It’s not working,because you can not plan everything. American boxer Mike Tyson had a fantastic phrase: everyman has a plan, until he gets hits. That is also what happens with masterplans: when you design into every detail, when something goes another way, or some conditions change, you are trapped in a plan which can not answer these new challenges.

So I think blueprint planning is a problem. I like what Peter Bosselmann②said: if you want to make mistakes, make them in a way repairable or reversible. I think this is very wise. But in a strict master plan, where everything is interlinked, you can’t make such repairs. As landscape architects and urbanists, I think one of the most complex tasks we have today is ecosystem repair, or I call it reweaving the urban carpet (Fig. 5). We don’t have much expansion areas anymore, we have to repair what is already there. It is so complex because there are vested interests on every square meter of land. It’s much more complicated than making a 3D rendering for something new you are going to build. It’s also about what you are going to remove.That is the challenge for your generation. I wish you a lot of success.

LA： I see delicate connections between Casco Concept and your later works. For instance, in the Sand Motor project, what you‘designed’ is the mechanism instead of the form. Can you tell us the story of the Sand Motor?

DS： Again, I think it’s unfair to refer Sand Motor as ‘my’ work. It is done by lots of people,including scientists, engineers, ecologists, and landscape architects.

In the Netherlands the tradition of making plans is an almost reversed version of Chinese situation, which you’re probably still designing while they’ve already executed your ideas on site.In the Netherlands, there is an enormous amount of deliberation, debates and discussions before something is actually done. There were a lot of ideas to reform our coastline, especially the part between Hoek van Holland and Den Haag.Every time when a plan was presented, it brought enthusiasm. After one year, everybody started to worry about budget issues and the likes. Then enthusiasm faded. After some years, another plan came, the same story happened again.

Therefore we thought it’s not a good idea to make too ambitious plans, and we made the Sand Motor as a small pilot of a future, possible much larger project. From a governance point of view,we did take a different angle. What we did with it was not to reinforce the coastline with conventional engineering means. Instead, we brought the natural processes to attain the same kind of safety. You could say it is fantastic to let the flows in the North Sea to erode the Sand Motor, and transport the sand to the weak parts of the coast. This is only possible with advanced modelling. Many people believed that we might lose all the sand by doing so,but my colleague Marcel Stive of TU Delft found out in modelling that the coast stream is strong enough to work it out and lose only a fraction of the sand (Fig. 6, 7).

The location of Sand Motor is strategically chosen. It may not be a universal solution for all the coastal lines. What is universal is that you can use natural processes to meet your target, instead of using engineering ways with a lot of concrete.That’s the interesting part for me.

LA： What do you think of Landscape Urbanism? Do you think there is any connection between the Dutch theories and Landscape Urbanism?

DS： What Landscape Urbanism interests me,firstly, is that we look beyond the Dutch situation,and look at those human settlements around the world that listen to the landscape. Charles Waldheim also mentioned that the landscape and landscape changes can both be an analogue and a model of urbanization. I like the fact that it’s also a process-oriented, not pattern-oriented way to look at urbanization. Last but not least, many urbanists focus on the dense, dynamic aspects of the cities.However, we have to acknowledge that in large parts of the world, the urban density is decreasing.We also need sustainable answers for the problems arising in these shrinking areas. The densification is not a catholicon. Think about 300 years fromnow, what are you going to do with the half urbanized, half agrarian or natural lands? They also have very interesting characteristics and qualities.These characteristics may also inspire you in dense areas: in order to be sustainable, probably you can produce your own food and energy (Fig. 8).

10-1 “鸛計(jì)劃”概念平面，項(xiàng)目覆蓋范圍約90km×20km。本規(guī)劃針對(duì)荷蘭河流上游地區(qū)發(fā)展提出，是1985年EO 韋爾斯競(jìng)賽（荷蘭最重要的區(qū)域規(guī)劃競(jìng)賽之一）獲勝方案，也是“框架理論”的第一個(gè)大型實(shí)踐項(xiàng)目Plan Ooievaar (overview plan, area covers 90km x 20km), winning entry of the Eo Wijers Competition (one of the most important regional planning competition in Netherlands) 1985,showing the perspectives for ecological and economic development of the upper river area of the Netherlands. The plan was the first large scale pilot for the Casco-concept

10-2 “鸛計(jì)劃”細(xì)部：為農(nóng)業(yè)發(fā)展提供靈活的空間。這種水利系統(tǒng)可以使不同地塊的地下水位不同，農(nóng)場(chǎng)主可以通過(guò)精確控制水位發(fā)展不同的農(nóng)業(yè)形態(tài)Plan Ooievaar (detail), interventions to provide a flexible working space for agricultural development. A high and a low water system allowing individual farmers to fine tune their water tables and thereby boosting their production

10-3 “鸛計(jì)劃”細(xì)部：通過(guò)降低夏季堤壩的高度，可以為河流沿岸的自然過(guò)程提供更多時(shí)間和空間，從而得到一個(gè)更為生機(jī)勃勃的自然系統(tǒng)Plan Ooievaar (detail), interventions showing how nature development can give more spatial and temporal freedom for river processes by lowering the summer dikes, that could result in a robust framework for nature

LA： You’ve worked in Dutch Forestry Commission for about 10 years. And you’ve been appointed as Dutch Chief State Landscape Architect in 2004. Did you engage in policy making back to that time?

DS： I involved in policy making by means of making plans or advice, which is an indirect way of influencing policy.

In the years I worked in Forestry Service, we were very active in nature development. In Dutch ideology, nature is the side effect of farming. All of our land was reclaimed, we almost have no natural areas. The most spectacular elements of the landscape are side effects of farming. For instance, we have species-rich grasslands and thousands of meadow birds, etc. As I mentioned,as the agriculture expanded fast, these natural areas qualities were taken over gradually. Following the news of agriculture success, species became extinct.In the 1980s nature was almost pronounced dead.

Oostvaardersplassen was an exceptional discovery.It was a polder supposed to become an industrial area,but people didn’t drain it in time. Surprisingly, nature‘came back’ in the marshy area as a squatter movement.Thousands of geese started to breed in that area,although they stopped to breed in the Netherlands since mid-19th century. It proved that Dutch nature was not dead at all. Given the right conditions, it could become incredible. This observation also spurred a lot of innovations (Fig. 9). The Plan Ooievaar was especially inspired by that, and we had Casco Concept(Fig. 10). Much later those influenced projects like Room For The River indirectly.

When I was appointed as the Chief Landscape Architect, I was rather an adviser than a man with real power. For example, I helped to make spatial quality as the second goal of Room For The River Project. You lay the foundations of exceptional projects, where if you would be sure that landscape architects could be involved in such projects. That was the role of State Advisor of on Landscape Architecture. And also, I gave advice. We are in the beginning of energy transitions. The essence of the spatial aspect of the energy transition is that we will have to harvest ‘thin’ energy (wind and solar) on enormous surfaces. One day you may have a horizon full of wind turbines. They are immediately visible from everywhere. I wrote a thoughtful report on wind turbines about how you can deal with these ‘monsters’. That’s the start of my interest in energy transitions[1].

LA： When you served as the State Landscape Architect, what was your major concern? How did you set your priority levels among all kinds of issues?

DS： I have always been interested in what are the processes and powers that make the landscape change. A little curiosity may bring me to the key issues. For instance, I did a study on tourism, I did a study on Tourism, because tourism was effecting the European landscapes in a spectacular way by that time. How can you make this enormous powerful industry not only eroding its surroundings and thereby eating its own economical fundament? I was also interested in certain types of leisure. What I saw in Holland was that parts of agricultural landscape were being occupied by horse riding fields. I thought if that is a force which can change the landscape,we have to talk to these horse riding people and see how beautiful yet sustainable horse stables and fences can be made. Same storylines go for electricity production and water management , etc.Our landscape is forever changing. It is a mirror of our society. So I have never been very interested in pure landscape conservation. We can’t let the world stop. You can better judo than box against these forces of change. The trick is to invite them to make a meaningful contribution to the landscape and get related in an intelligent way to the landscape heritage.

I also have a great interest in landscape history.According to Ilke Marschall③, the plant used for making blue paints had shaped the landscape around Thuringia. If the small thing like this has an enormous impact on the landscape, as a designer,you can trace its clues, jump onto it and ride the tiger. That is a nice way to look at our discipline.

If I must make a priority list out of these issues, for the Netherlands, the top is everything that keeps the physical existence of our country,including hydrological system, water defence systems, etc. And then infrastructure is second place, both hard infrastructure for cargos and people and soft ecological infrastructure for biota. Land occupations like urban districts and recreational areas are in third place.

11 位于世界生物多樣性熱點(diǎn)區(qū)的超過(guò)30萬(wàn)人口的城市Hotspot Cities： cities of 300,000 or more people projected to sprawl into remnant habitat in the world's biological hotspots

In present days, these issues are closely connected climate change and biodiversity loss.That worries me most. I like the phrase “fossil expressionism”, which intimates that everything we can do is because of the relatively short period with the windfall of fossil fuels. I can fly from Amsterdam to Italy for 40 euros. It’s even almost cheaper than staying at home. It is so cheap because the tax on aero kerosene has been banned since the end of World War II. But the heyday for airplanes might end somewhere. The context of climate change and biodiversity loss asks us to rethink the way we live. Here comes the Anthropocene, the age of mankind. On the one hand, it’s a warning that we human beings are ‘plague organism’, on the other hand, we are the reflective ‘plague organism’which can think about the effects of what we do. We have to not only mediate the negative impact, but also take away the causes-the causes of greenhouse gases, the causes of extinction of animals and plants, etc.

LA： You’ve been teaching for years and you are one of the founders of the Chair of Landscape Architecture in TU Delft. As a professor, what is the most important thing you want pass on to young people?

DS： What I want to pass on to young people is that everything that moves in the landscape can be made to a meaningful contribution to the landscape, if loving care is being added by young designers. I was invited to Montreal for World Design Summit, and I made a little joke in my speech: if you throw problems to landscape architects, public spaces always seem to come out as solutions. ‘Turning problems into parks’ was a joke, but it also indicated the hard core of our discipline: it is our social contribution.

12 設(shè)計(jì)結(jié)合研究擁有強(qiáng)大的圖示作用，本圖展示了2050年在北海地區(qū)建造25 000個(gè)風(fēng)力發(fā)電風(fēng)車的情景。這一計(jì)劃將占用部分北海海域面積，覆蓋北海周邊國(guó)家90%的用電需求，同時(shí)創(chuàng)造更具活力的海洋生態(tài)系統(tǒng)An Example of the power of research by design to fight the crisis of the imagination. Two stills from ‘2050, An Energetic Odyssey’ an animated floor projection that shows how 25,000 wind turbines can be built and gradually occupy parts of the North Sea, providing 90% of the electricity demand of the North Sea Countries while boosting the marine ecosystem

13 生物多樣性和能源革命緊密相關(guān)。本圖展示了世界上所有溫室氣體的來(lái)源，其中“土地功能變更”是和交通廢氣排放同等嚴(yán)重的問(wèn)題。土地變更中有多達(dá)75%的溫室氣體排放是由于南美洲草原開墾，以及印尼和巴西的熱帶雨林開墾造成的。這些開墾一部分是為了食品工業(yè)和飼料業(yè)，另一部分是在迎合發(fā)展生物燃油的錯(cuò)誤社會(huì)導(dǎo)向Where biodiversity and energy transition meet. A diagram of the world sources of greenhouse gasses. Please take a look at the contribution of ‘land use change’ in the total problem, it is as large as the world’s transport sector. And land use change for almost 75% (!) stands for reclamation of South American pampa’s for soy bean plantations and the reclamation of tropical rain forests, in Indonesia and Brazil. Partly because of the ill informed call for biodiesel and partly for the food industry and agriculture’s fodder demand

14 本圖展示了陸地脊椎動(dòng)物的生物質(zhì)總和的構(gòu)成。其中，95%為人類及人工飼養(yǎng)動(dòng)物，僅有5%為野生哺乳動(dòng)物The biomass of vertebrate land mammals. The infographic shows that 95% of that biomass is ‘us’, humans with our domesticated animals, leaving only 5% for all the wild mammals

However, there are some problems that wouldn’t be turned into projects spontaneously and that don’t have a client. Like what the combination of the areas of future urbanization with the World Biodiversity Map shows, most biodiversity hotspots coincide with dense human occupations(Fig. 11).How can you find a client to deal with a problem on this scale? You have to take a detour to get through.In this case, you may attract attention from IUCN or United Nations, to prioritize this problem among national governments. In the end, the regional nature conservation plans may come out. Then you have real projects with real clients for landscape architects.The whole process is probably consists of 12 steps,and it takes 10 years to go. We can only take this detour through Research by Design. This might be the most valuable contribution of landscape architecture to the world’s environmental problems.Students should be given the academic freedom to explore the problems without clients, instead of only be trained with commercially like projects. That’s an extremely important element I want to give to the young generation. This element can only thrive in universities, spread out through competitions,conferences and exhibitions, and then raise the awareness of the general public. For instance, if you show the 3D drawing of what happens to Pearl Delta Areas if sea level rises half meter to politicians, they immediately understand how urgent the problem is. Research by Design is the laboratory of our discipline. Our future lays in it.

LA： What is your recent focus and why?In your perspective, what would be the significant issues in Landscape Architecture in the coming decade?

DS： Firstly I worry about the combined impact of urbanization and agriculture, not only on climate but also on biodiversity. Biodiversity is even a wicked problem than climate change.And I am still very active in the discussion on energy transition, continuing my proposal of wind turbines in the North Sea (Fig. 12). I am an old age pensioner, but I still have a busy schedule.

Like I tried to elaborate in my lecture Contact,Contrast and Contract, there are different ways that landscape architects and urban planners can deal with the relationship between urbanization and nature that also have their agency on different scales. First, we have to realize that there will always be ‘nature’ in the city as a natural expression of the materials we use, the structures we build and the water systems that interlace our cities. That is a free bonus we can enlarge by using the right materials. But for the head-on collision in the making between the biodiversity hotspots and the areas where exponential urbanization is expected can best be solved by using the traditional and trusted instrument of making of strict nature reserves where the whole ecosystem web of biodiversity can survive. These are greatly helped by choosing the right scale and connectivity so that natural processes such as erosion, sedimentation, herbivory and predation have enough functional space. If this is impossible, molding the city form could be a secondbest alternative. This includes smaller nature-reserves in the city. We must also realize that most cities in the world are settlements situated in also old or very agricultural landscapes. It is a different situation that will ask for a different mitigation strategy. My hunch would be that reassessing the archetypical models of the relationship between city and landscape/nature could provide a fertile strategy for these 21st-century urban landscapes. The Garden City, The Lobe City and Broad-acre City can be transformed to Contrast,Contact and Contract strategies.

Coming back to the problem of Climate disruption: Now in the Netherlands we have socalled ‘Climate Tables’, consisting of 5 sectors of society (Industry, Built Environment, Agriculture and Land Use, Electricity Production & Mobility),trying to find solutions to decrease the impact of climate change by means of an energy transition and reducing outpour of greenhouse gasses (Fig. 13). I think it is same for China that there is a great focus on how to reach the goals of Paris Agreement.Energy is one of the core topics. Is gas indeed a stepping stone between coal and sustainable energy?How are we going to get this enormous demand in energy? How can we find substitute resources? And how is it going to affect our society? That brings us back to where our bureau began: looking at the future of agriculture. In Casco Concept we separate agriculture from the framework, but now agriculture plays a significant role in energy transition climate policies because of the direct emissions, due to manure management, the metabolism of ruminants,the water management in peat areas and most of all: the land use change in the tropics that can also be converted to the food industry. And to get an idea of the dominance of this agricultural complex:95% of total biomass of the mammals on land is us with our domesticated animals. 25% of the net primary production of our planet (the energy or biomass produced by plants through photosynthesis in the whole terrestrial and ocean ecosystems) is appropriated by humans (Fig. 14). These numbers are staggering. It’s very dangerous to think we can easily feed 10 billion more people. It will be very hard. In that sense eating less meat is a good idea anyway, which is directly connected to climate change. However, I don’t see any indication yet that the meat consumption is going down worldwide.We are keeping a system that is really plundering the planet.

15-1 德克 西蒙斯在意大利西西里發(fā)現(xiàn)了一塊生長(zhǎng)了近20種地衣的屋瓦Dirk Sijmons with roof tile with some twenty species of lichens on Sicily, Italy

15-2 屋瓦上的迷你地衣景觀 圖中共有4種地衣類植物，分別為地圖衣屬植物（Rhizocarpon geograficum, Rhizocarpon richardii）, 平茶漬衣屬植物（Aspicilia spec）和異褐梅屬植物（Allantoparmelia alpicola）Detail of the miniature lichen landscapes on the roof tile with Rhizocarpon geograficum, Rhizocarpon richardii, Aspicilia spec and Allantoparmelia alpicola

16 自然友好的城市發(fā)展：艾爾伯赫地區(qū)的內(nèi)部運(yùn)河為艾爾湖水生生態(tài)系統(tǒng)提供了避風(fēng)港，保證水岸生態(tài)發(fā)展旺盛。這里的設(shè)計(jì)要點(diǎn)通過(guò)一系列小型碼頭保護(hù)軟質(zhì)駁岸不被侵蝕Nature inclusive Urbanism. The inner canals of IJburg offer lee zones in the aquatic ecosystem of the IJmeer where riparian banks can flourish. Crucial detail： landings are provided in the design to prevent the banks to be eroded

These two are my real concerns recently.I’ve always been an optimist and I still am, but I changed my position to an end optimist that everything will be okay in the end. In the meantime,we will have a lot of crises with flooding, migration,and even hunger, because of climate change and biodiversity loss. I’m afraid it’s not going to be easy. We have to boost brace ourselves for rough times. But I have hope. And there is a subtle but important difference between optimism and hope.Optimists tend to be conservative in the sense that they think the present situation is basically okay and that we can build out from that. Hope is something that keeps you going also if the situation is grim.

LA： You have a specially made lichen lens to observe the environmental qualities in cities.For most landscape architects, their daily work is mainly based within cities and they have little chance to think globally. Do you have some specific suggestions for people who do small to middle scale projects? How can they take care of biodiversity and ecosystems in cities?

DS： The lens with its build-in LED is to observe lichens. I am fascinated by these most sturdy, symbiotic organisms that (Fig. 15) produce the most interesting miniature landscapes. I picked up this interest years ago. It is a meditative way to have a nature experience out of the commercialized beaten paths. And yes, lichens are a fine indicator for air pollution. They are especially sensitive for SO2that is produced by traffic and coal-fueled electricity plants. That’s why I wish everybody in and around Beijing a swift return of the lichens in the city.

LA： Last but not least, have you kept an eye on what happens in China? Do you maybe have any words for Chinese landscape architects?

DS： I am only an observer from a distance,not a close inspector, so my opinions could be superficial. Chinese people have the talent for engineering. In the past decades, the engineering projects have gone tremendously big in China.However, the concern and knowledge for ecology might be left behind the potential of engineering.This gap has to be closed, and landscape architecture is one of the disciplines that can bridge the gap.We are on the crossroad between engineering and natural sciences. Besides mediating between the two,we can also be critical about what happens in the urbanization process. Therefore I think the impacts of Chinese landscape architects are crucial. You can really import the knowledge of nature into the projects. They are not meant to stifle the design but really enrich and empower the design (Fig. 16).

Notes:

①Chris van Leeuwen (1920 2005) was a noted Dutch ecologist. His work formed the basis for national policies on sustainable spatial planning. In particular, the principle of ecological main structure used in current policies is based on his work.

②Peter Bosselmann, professor of UC Berkley, works internationally on design and planning projects. His publications include Urban Transformation： Understanding City Form and Design; Representation of Places： Reality and Realism in City Design.

③Ilke Marschall teaches in Erfurt University of Applied Sciences in Germany. She focuses on cultural landscapes and regional landscapes.

④ Fig.1?Kees Duijvestein; Fig. 2?Chris van Leeuwen, 1971;Fig. 3 Topographic Service of the Netherlands; Fig. 4?Kerkstra en Vrijlandt, 1982; Fig. 5?AWB, Lola Landscape Architects,Floris Alkemade Urbanism; Fig. 6?H+N+S Landscape Architects, 2009; Fig. 7?Rijkswaterstaat; Fig.8?Municipality of Almere; Fig. 9?Dirk Sijmons; Fig. 10?Dick de Bruijn, Dick Hamhuis, Lodewijk van Nieuwenhuijze, Willem Overmars, Dirk Sijmons and Frans Vera; Fig. 11?Richard Weller, Claire Hoch &Chieh Huang, Atlas of the End of the World. UPenn, Philadelphia,2017; Fig. 12?Maarten Hajer, Dirk Sijmons, H+N+S Landscape Architects, Tungsten, EcoFys for IABR, 2016;Fig. 13?H+N+S Landscape Architects, Data source： World Resources Institute; Fig. 14? H+N+S Landscape Architects,source of the data： Vaslav Smil, Harvesting the Biosphere, 2015;Fig. 15-1?Annemarie Bets; Fig. 15-2?Dirk Sijmons; Fig. 16?Blauwhoed.