陳驥

近來(lái)，我國(guó)百科詩(shī)派的詩(shī)集被諸多國(guó)外著名圖書(shū)館收藏。百科詩(shī)派是當(dāng)代文壇智庫(kù)型詩(shī)歌流派，由潛身于文史理工領(lǐng)域的詩(shī)歌作者組成，主要從事史詩(shī)、長(zhǎng)詩(shī)、大型系列組詩(shī)創(chuàng)作和從內(nèi)容到體裁的實(shí)驗(yàn)。以學(xué)術(shù)、智性、涵容、洞察的姿態(tài)亮相。浙江省有一位作者入選——浙江工商大學(xué)的王自亮教授。王自亮從1978年就讀于杭州大學(xué)中文系時(shí)就開(kāi)始詩(shī)歌創(chuàng)作，參加過(guò)1982年第二屆“青春詩(shī)會(huì)”，40年來(lái)出版了《狂暴的邊界》《將骰子擲向大?！贰秾什R》《渾天儀》等6本個(gè)人詩(shī)集，發(fā)表了諸多隨筆、詩(shī)歌批評(píng)、藝術(shù)批評(píng)等文字，其詩(shī)歌多次獲獎(jiǎng)，最近他的長(zhǎng)詩(shī)《上?！帆@第二屆江南詩(shī)歌獎(jiǎng)。他的部分詩(shī)歌被翻譯成英文和西班牙文。日前，王自亮接受了本刊專訪。以下是采訪問(wèn)答錄：

問(wèn)：作為漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)人，您是怎么看待漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌走向世界的？詩(shī)人在文化交流中應(yīng)該是個(gè)什么樣的角色？

答：站在東西方文化對(duì)話與交融的角度，我認(rèn)為，詩(shī)人首先應(yīng)該是個(gè)文化使者。為什么這么說(shuō)呢？因?yàn)樽孕略?shī)誕生以來(lái)，漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌發(fā)展趨勢(shì)是與世界文明進(jìn)程同步的。中國(guó)詩(shī)人與世界其他國(guó)家的詩(shī)人一起，既分享自由、進(jìn)步和變化帶來(lái)的好處和開(kāi)放社會(huì)所展示的廣闊文化視野，也承受著社會(huì)轉(zhuǎn)型、撞擊和逆襲帶來(lái)的痛楚，包括恐怖主義、氣候危機(jī)和資源衰竭等。世界文明是個(gè)整體，誰(shuí)也離不開(kāi)誰(shuí)，包括詩(shī)人在內(nèi)的任何知識(shí)界和文化界人士都無(wú)法置身事外。早在上個(gè)世紀(jì)初期，蘇俄著名詩(shī)人曼德?tīng)査顾?，就以世界文明的使者為己任。這個(gè)被稱為“文明的孩子”的人，“喜歡在平凡中創(chuàng)造奇跡，力圖對(duì)遠(yuǎn)古文明，如古希臘、古埃及、古印度等文化的積淀進(jìn)行綜合，系統(tǒng)地研究和探索它們之間深層的聯(lián)系，把時(shí)間當(dāng)作空間的第四維度，通過(guò)對(duì)歷史、神話的朦朧回憶，來(lái)領(lǐng)悟現(xiàn)實(shí)的生活，追求石頭般可感可觸的冷靜、堅(jiān)硬與持久，在對(duì)歷史的詞語(yǔ)中實(shí)現(xiàn)自我的精神還原”。[1]按照著名詩(shī)人布羅茨基的說(shuō)法，“不是說(shuō)曼德?tīng)査顾肥且粋€(gè)‘文明化的人；不如說(shuō)，他是為文明和屬于文明的人。有一次他被要求解釋他所屬的文學(xué)運(yùn)動(dòng)阿克梅派的定義，他回答說(shuō)：‘對(duì)一種世界文化的鄉(xiāng)愁?！盵2]依我的理解，世界文化的使者，實(shí)際上所做就是從整體上傳承、反思和揚(yáng)棄文明社會(huì)的諸多事物，包括人和物質(zhì)、生活與精神、回歸和進(jìn)化；與此同時(shí)，在傳播思想文化、探索藝術(shù)形式和超越現(xiàn)時(shí)代狀態(tài)等方面，做出應(yīng)該有的藝術(shù)奉獻(xiàn)，同時(shí)對(duì)人性、心靈和自我，作出詩(shī)人的追尋和回答。當(dāng)然，這一切都應(yīng)該是通過(guò)語(yǔ)言、潛意識(shí)和象征等現(xiàn)代后現(xiàn)代藝術(shù)探究，并通過(guò)詩(shī)歌文本和文學(xué)活動(dòng)來(lái)達(dá)致目標(biāo)。即使是那些標(biāo)榜“唯美”和“詩(shī)到語(yǔ)言為止”的詩(shī)人和詩(shī)歌批評(píng)家，也希圖與更大范疇的“他者”交流，并傳播自己的文學(xué)觀念、審美意識(shí)和文本，并沒(méi)有一刻停止過(guò)企圖獲得讀者或同行的理解。傳播、接受、闡釋、理解和對(duì)話，就是文化使者要做的工作。詩(shī)人作為文化使者，是“盜火者”、思索者、預(yù)言者，更是個(gè)超越者。

問(wèn)：您參加過(guò)哪些詩(shī)歌活動(dòng)，與國(guó)際詩(shī)人有過(guò)交流嗎？您覺(jué)得近些年中國(guó)詩(shī)人與國(guó)際詩(shī)人之間的交流形式和內(nèi)容有什么特點(diǎn)？

答：我最近幾年與國(guó)際詩(shī)人的交流主要還是在國(guó)內(nèi)詩(shī)歌活動(dòng)中，如唐曉渡、楊煉主持的“國(guó)際詩(shī)人揚(yáng)州瘦西湖虹橋修契”、楊煉主持的“上海國(guó)際詩(shī)歌節(jié)”、北島主辦的“香港詩(shī)歌之夜杭州站”等。在活動(dòng)中我認(rèn)識(shí)了不少國(guó)際著名詩(shī)人和批評(píng)家，交流也很順暢，對(duì)詩(shī)人、詩(shī)歌文本和詩(shī)學(xué)問(wèn)題的探討很深入。印象特別深刻的是2016年參加“國(guó)際詩(shī)人揚(yáng)州瘦西湖虹橋修契”活動(dòng)，當(dāng)時(shí)主辦方邀請(qǐng)了包括我在內(nèi)的6位漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)人，也邀請(qǐng)6位西班牙語(yǔ)詩(shī)人。活動(dòng)借助中國(guó)傳統(tǒng)詩(shī)歌文化活動(dòng)的形式——虹橋修契，同時(shí)植入國(guó)際詩(shī)歌元素，以傳統(tǒng)修契、詩(shī)歌朗誦、對(duì)譯切磋、詩(shī)學(xué)研討、中外詩(shī)人對(duì)話等形式，將國(guó)際詩(shī)人之間的交流推進(jìn)到一個(gè)新穎、精到和多樣的境地。我的一首發(fā)表于1986年的詩(shī)歌，叫《舟欲行時(shí)》，由著名翻譯家趙振江先生翻譯成西班牙語(yǔ)，而西班牙語(yǔ)詩(shī)人胡安·卡洛斯·梅斯特雷拿出自己的詩(shī)歌《大象墓地》漢譯本，進(jìn)行漢語(yǔ)-西班牙語(yǔ)對(duì)譯，逐字推敲，整體觀照，從用詞、詩(shī)藝、意象和有機(jī)構(gòu)成等角度，都做了詳盡的探究。我不懂西班牙語(yǔ)，胡安·卡洛斯·梅斯特雷也不懂漢語(yǔ)，但有翻譯大家趙振江先生的細(xì)致、耐心和周到的傳達(dá)，我和這位西班牙語(yǔ)詩(shī)人的交流很有效，我們雙方都所獲甚多，有的已經(jīng)轉(zhuǎn)化為一種新的能量和詩(shī)學(xué)認(rèn)知。我本來(lái)就很喜歡西班牙語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌，以前都通過(guò)漢譯，這次是面對(duì)面交流，對(duì)我認(rèn)識(shí)西班牙語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌的特質(zhì)和魅力很有助益。我相信胡安·卡洛斯·梅斯特雷也會(huì)對(duì)漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌有新的感受。

問(wèn)：聽(tīng)說(shuō)您和國(guó)內(nèi)其他一些優(yōu)秀詩(shī)人的詩(shī)集被好多國(guó)家圖書(shū)館所廣泛收藏，能否介紹一下這件事的基本情況？

答：自2017年6月起至2018年3月為止，我和百科詩(shī)派其他成員的詩(shī)集，已相繼被美國(guó)、英國(guó)、俄羅斯、新西蘭、德國(guó)、荷蘭、愛(ài)爾蘭、法國(guó)、墨西哥、芬蘭、新加坡、葡萄牙、比利時(shí)、奧地利、瑞典、挪威、瑞士、澳大利亞、波蘭、意大利、捷克、加拿大、巴西、智利等一百余家國(guó)家級(jí)圖書(shū)館、世界名校圖書(shū)館及大使館收藏。其中包括大英圖書(shū)館（英國(guó)國(guó)家圖書(shū)館）、美國(guó)國(guó)會(huì)圖書(shū)館及俄羅斯、捷克、挪威、法國(guó)的國(guó)家圖書(shū)館等。收藏頻次最高的是“百科詩(shī)派創(chuàng)派十周年年鑒”系列，包括殷曉媛《播云劑》、海上《隱秘圖騰：琥珀星》、山水如歌《潘洛斯階梯上的螞蟻》、浪激天涯《超弦之玄》和我的《渾天儀》。除此之外，還有殷曉媛的長(zhǎng)詩(shī)“前沿三部曲”、我的《將骰子擲向大?！泛汀秾什R》、向以鮮《我的孔子》《唐詩(shī)彌撒曲》、孫謙《人馬座升空》、盤(pán)予《光。產(chǎn)卵》、楊政《蒼蠅》等，以及百科詩(shī)派獨(dú)立設(shè)計(jì)的“2018人工智能紙魔方”。在這里要特意介紹一下這個(gè)包含6國(guó)語(yǔ)言的“魔方”：每一頁(yè)使用86種源自大和色譜精選標(biāo)準(zhǔn)色彩，介紹100位對(duì)百科詩(shī)派寫(xiě)作影響最大的世界級(jí)大師，可掃碼閱讀70條來(lái)自《科學(xué)》《自然》《細(xì)胞》《國(guó)家地理》《福布斯》《今日美國(guó)》等全球頂級(jí)雜志的前沿新聞，還暗藏72個(gè)代表人類(lèi)史上標(biāo)志性歷史日期的二進(jìn)制碼。這是百科詩(shī)派跨界探索的成果之一。眾多收藏機(jī)構(gòu)對(duì)百科詩(shī)派給以極高的評(píng)價(jià)。俄羅斯國(guó)家圖書(shū)館采編部部長(zhǎng)T.V.彼得魯先科先生，將百科詩(shī)派著作譽(yù)為“橫貫當(dāng)代中國(guó)詩(shī)壇的百科詩(shī)學(xué)主義之強(qiáng)流”；多米尼加國(guó)家圖書(shū)館館藏發(fā)展部部長(zhǎng)Glennys Reyes Tapia則稱百科詩(shī)派著作為“博大文化代表、書(shū)志編纂研究瑰寶”?！鞍倏圃?shī)派創(chuàng)派十周年年鑒”是這一流派在重構(gòu)諸多學(xué)科的跨文體、多語(yǔ)言先鋒寫(xiě)作嘗試中的重大事件之一。百科詩(shī)派成員還受邀參加法國(guó)文化部贊助的“詩(shī)人之春”（Le Printemps des Poètes）等國(guó)際詩(shī)歌活動(dòng)，以及獨(dú)立翻譯20世紀(jì)最著名的建筑大師、“功能主義之父”勒·柯布西耶詩(shī)集《直角之詩(shī)》。2018年1月，包括我的詩(shī)集《渾天儀》在內(nèi)的“百科詩(shī)派創(chuàng)派十周年年鑒”圖書(shū)，在位于巴黎第三區(qū)Boulevard de Sébastopol 72號(hào)La librairie le Phénix（鳳凰書(shū)店）正式發(fā)售。

問(wèn)：您的詩(shī)歌翻譯成外語(yǔ)的情況如何？有無(wú)出版計(jì)劃？

答：我的詩(shī)歌，有一部分已經(jīng)翻譯成英語(yǔ)和西班牙語(yǔ)。其中詩(shī)人、翻譯家阿九、殷曉媛出力甚多。我的詩(shī)歌英譯工作還在進(jìn)行中。詩(shī)人、著名翻譯家海岸也準(zhǔn)備翻譯我的另一部分詩(shī)歌。我們還會(huì)找一些英語(yǔ)國(guó)家的漢學(xué)家、詩(shī)人，來(lái)對(duì)我的詩(shī)歌英譯本進(jìn)行潤(rùn)色和訂正。我打算在今明兩年內(nèi)，出一本自己的漢英雙語(yǔ)詩(shī)選。今后還會(huì)出英譯詩(shī)集，特別是爭(zhēng)取讓國(guó)外的出版社出我的詩(shī)集。我會(huì)與翻譯家們共同合作，把這件有意義的事做好。在國(guó)際文化交流過(guò)程中，翻譯起到的作用居功厥偉。當(dāng)代漢語(yǔ)詩(shī)歌走向世界任重道遠(yuǎn)，我們應(yīng)當(dāng)加倍努力。

Recent years saw the powerful rise of ‘encyclopedic poetry in the literary world of China. “Encyclopaedism”， which has been turned into an ideological trend of contemporary Chinese poetry， emphasizes elitism， intellectualism， comprehensiveness， intertextuality and multiculturalism. Founded by epic poet Yin Xiaoyuan in 2007 and supported by an independent， freelance literary group， the new trend is often mentioned as “avant-garde” and experimental. The members of the ‘club include maverick， innovative， tradition-defying epic poets， novelists and trans-genre writers engaged in “encyclopaedism” experiments in themes， styles and techniques. All these people are meanwhile experts in arts or science as their social identities. One of the key members is Wang Ziliang， whose passion in poetry writing was lit up in his undergraduate years in the Chinese Department of Hangzhou University four decades ago. Having published six poetry collections and seen many of his works translated into English and Spanish， he recently won an award at the 2nd Jiangnan Poetry Competition for his long poem .

The following is a summary of a question & answer session between Cultural Dialogue and Wang.

Q： What are your thoughts about the position of the Chinese poetry in the global literary arena？ And what role do you think the Chinese poets should play？

A： From the perspective of east-and-west cultural communication， first of all， a poet should be a cultural ambassador. The development of modern Chinese poetry since its birthday has been running synchronously with the worlds civilization progress. Poets worldwide have been sharing the benefits of all the social progresses that have taken place as well as the accompanying sufferings such as terrorism， climate crisis and resource depletion. In fact， no one living in this world can stay aloof from the affair. Osip Mandelshtam， one of the foremost members of the Acmeist school of poets， dedicated his life to such a role， working wonders from triviality and painstakingly exploring deeper connections between different cultures. Time， in his eyes， was the fourth dimension of the world. He spent his lifetime making connections with history to see the truth of reality and return to his spiritual roots. Acmeism， or the Guild of Poets， is “a reminiscence of the world culture”， Joseph Brodsky， a Russian and American poet and essayist， once pointed out when asked to explain the mission of the transient poetic school.

As far as I can understand， the nucleus of the responsibilities of a cultural ambassador is to inherit， reflect and sublate， and to pursue the ultimate answers about human nature. All this cannot be realized without the function of postmodernist art that takes the form of languages， subconscious and symbolism. In this process， poetry and literary activities play a critical role. Even the extremists among poets and critics are eager to express， communicate and be understood by readers and peers. In a word， the duty of a cultural ambassador is to talk with the world. A poet is a fire stealer， a predictor， a thinker and a transcender.

Q： How do you feel about your communication with poets from other countries？

A： Most of such communication in recent years was from activities I took part in China， such as the international poetry festivals in Yangzhou， Shanghai and Hangzhou. I made a lot of new like-minded friends， and the communication was smooth and inspiring. I was one of the six Chinese poets taking part in the Yangzhou gathering that also drew participation from six Spanish-speaking poets. The events elaborately designed traditional Chinese elements added enormous flair to the atmosphere. There was a thrill of ‘dialogue， achieved by a brainstorming session in which Spanish poet and visual artist Juan Carlos Mestre and I enjoyed an inspiring chat with the assistance of the interpretation by famous translator Zhao Zhenjiang. The communication generated new energy and deepened my perception of the art of poetry； and I believe Juan Carlos Mestre felt the same way after the dialogue.

Q： Many collections of works by ‘Encyclopaedists， including several of yours， have been collected by famous libraries worldwide. How do you feel about this？

A： Since June 2017， our works have found their way into world-famous libraries and embassies in more than 100 countries including the British Library， Library of Congress and Bibliothèque Nationale de France. The most heavily collected is the Encyclopaedists Yearbook that includes a cycle of representative works by Encyclopaedists. The yearbook is a new milestone set by Encyclopaedists in their cross-genre， multilingual exploration. A book release ceremony was held at the La librairie le Phénix on Boulevard de Sébastopol in Paris in January 2018. The “2018 AI Rubiks Cube” is also worth mentioning. The elaborately designed multilingual ‘cube introduces 100 world-class masters whose influences shaped encyclopaedists into what they are today. The ‘cube allows the reader to browse 70 news stories from top-notch magazines such as Science， Nature and National Geographic and includes 72 enciphered binary codes that indicate the most important landmarks in human history. “Encyclopaedists” have drawn the attention from the Ministry of Culture of France and took part in a good many international poetry events such as Le Printemps des Poètes. Encyclopaedists were invited to translate Poème de langle Droit， a poem collection by Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier， regarded as the founding father of functionalism.

Q： Have you seen many of your works translated into other languages and published？

A： Some of my works have been translated into English and Spanish， for which I owe many thanks to famous translator and poet A Jiu and Yin Xiaoyuan. Translation for some other works is in progress. One of the plans is to work with sinologists and poets in English-speaking countries to polish the translation to get ready for the publishing of a bilingual collection at some point this year or next year. The importance of translators in cross-cultural exchange cannot be overestimated. We still have a long way to go before seeing modern Chinese poetry embraced by a global audience.