鮑勃·迪倫得諾獎

12月10日，諾貝爾獎頒獎典禮將在瑞典斯德哥爾摩舉行，特立獨行的鮑勃·迪倫多半不會出席。此前的10月13日，2016年諾貝爾文學(xué)獎揭曉，這位美國民謠藝術(shù)家榮獲該獎項。文學(xué)獎結(jié)果出人意料，這是諾貝爾文學(xué)獎第一次頒給詞曲創(chuàng)作人。對于迪倫獲獎，各方反應(yīng)不一。

瑞典文學(xué)院的理由是，迪倫“在美國歌曲的偉大傳統(tǒng)里，創(chuàng)造了新的詩意表現(xiàn)手法”，該學(xué)院成員韋斯特貝里說，迪倫“可能是最偉大的在世詩人”。而蘇格蘭小說家韋爾什則表示：“我是迪倫的粉絲，但音樂與文學(xué)截然不同，我感到憤怒。”瑞典文化作家斯文松則稱，瑞典文學(xué)院“為取悅?cè)罕姸C獎給迪倫” 。

鮑勃·迪倫生于1941年，原名羅伯特·艾倫·齊默曼(Robert Allen Zimmerman)，是一位美國唱作人、藝術(shù)家和作家。從1961年發(fā)布首張專輯至今，迪倫在流行音樂界和文化界起到的影響已超過50年。他的代表歌曲是《答案在風(fēng)中飄揚》(Blowing' in the Wind)、《時代在變》(The Times They Are a-Changing)、《像一塊滾石》（Like A Rolling Stone）、《荒蕪之街》（Desolation Row）等。

本期“國際朋友說”，我們來到一八九八咖啡館，幾個年輕的國際朋友就這個熱門話題發(fā)表觀點。線下討論的同時，我們也首次進(jìn)行了網(wǎng)絡(luò)直播嘗試，并與埃及的嘉賓進(jìn)行了國際連線。

On December 10th, the Nobel Prize Ceremony is going to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, and, most likely, the unique laureate, Bob Dylan, will not be attending. Previously, on October 13th, the list of 2016 Nobel Literature Prize laureates was announced, and the American folk singer Bob Dylan was honorably awarded the Nobel Literature Prize. This announcement was shocking for many, as this is the first time in the history when the Literature Prize goes to a song writer. And the opinions vary, as to whether Bob Dylan deserves the award.

The Sweden Academy explained, Bob Dylan has “invented a new way of poetic expression in the great American song tradition”, Westerberg, a member of the Academy, said, "Dylan is the greatest poet alive.”However, the Scottish novelist Welsh pointed out: “I am a fan of Bob Dylan, but music and literature are two different things, I am disappointed.” The Swedish culture writer Svenson said, “the Sweden Academy gave the Prize to Dylan as a joke”.

Bob Dylan, an American singer-songwriter, artist and writer, was born in 1941. Dylan’s real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman. From his first album, issued in 1961, Dylan’s star has shined for more than 50 years. His most representative songs include “Blowing in the Wind”, “The Times They Are a-Changing”,“Like A Rolling Stone”, “Desolation Row” and others.

This time “World Speaking” was staged in “1898” café, with a number of guests from different countries, all coming to express their opinion on this hot topic. The discussion was recorded in a livestreaming format, and via Internet we connected with our friend, who’s currently in Egypt.

鮑勃·迪倫的歌詞很入心

蘇莉：我最近看到的評論是，“人們選迪倫做諾獎得主，就像選川普當(dāng)選總統(tǒng)一樣。”大家都沒有想到。

主持人：這就有點像萊昂納多·迪卡普里奧（Leonardo DiCaprio），中國觀眾都叫他小李子，小李子也是陪跑奧斯卡多年，終于修成正果。吳求對迪倫得獎怎么看？

吳求：我是玩音樂的，一般我聽一首歌曲，會特別關(guān)注音樂細(xì)節(jié)，就音樂而言，迪倫曲子的音樂細(xì)節(jié)是比較簡單的。他得獎主要靠他的歌詞，他寫的歌詞能引起很多人的共鳴，他的歌詞很入心。

主持人：你說迪倫的曲子的音樂細(xì)節(jié)比較簡單，這一點我也有同感。我前一段時間找《答案在風(fēng)中飄揚》（Blowing in the wind）的伴奏，找不到，我就用吉他試了一下，發(fā)現(xiàn)也就4個和弦，于是自己動手編配了一個伴奏。那么，你從什么時候知道迪倫的？

吳求：我來自孟加拉國。1971年，我們脫離巴基斯坦而獨立。據(jù)我所知，鮑勃·迪倫當(dāng)年專門為孟加拉國舉辦過音樂會。所以我就對他挺好奇的，知道他是一個民謠歌手。因為我之前不是特別關(guān)注美式民謠，也就沒有多關(guān)注他。后來因為諾貝爾獎，我就又多關(guān)注了他一下。我發(fā)現(xiàn)他的歌詞是給予人希望的。比如《時代在變》（Times they are a-changin')，我特別喜歡這首歌。我有時會想，把迪倫的歌詞用現(xiàn)在的流行音樂重新編配一下，會是什么樣子？

Bob Dylan’s lyrics are heart capturing

Anastasia: Recently I saw a comment: As Trump was elected as President of the USA, Bob Dylan’s winning Nobel Literature Prize is also beyond our expection. No one expected either thing happening.

Host: It reminds me of Leonardo DiCaprio, who finally got his Oscar. The Chinese audience calls him “Little Li”. After so many years of being an Oscar nominee, “Little Li” made it after all. What does Shayer think about Bob Dylan’s award?

Shayer: I’m also doing music. Normally, when I listen to a song, I pay most attention to the tune. Bob Dylan’s music is very simple. The Nobel Prize was given to him because of people’s resonance with the lyrics in his songs. His lyrics are heart capturing.

Host: When you mentioned Dylans’ tunes are simple, I actually agreed with you. Not long ago I tried to find the accompaniment to his song “Blowing in the wind” online, and couldn’t. Then I took the guitar and found out, it’s only four chords, so I just made the music accompaniment myself. By the way, when did you fi rst learn about Dylan?

Shayer: I come from Bangladesh. In 1971 we gained independence from Pakistan. As far as I know, Bob Dylan organized a concert specially for Bangladesh. That’s why I was deeply in-terested in him, I knew he was a folk singer. Because I didn’t really listen to American-style folk music, I didn’t know much about his music. But recently, after this announcement about the Nobel Prize, I started following him. I discovered, his song lyrics give hope to people. For example, “Times they are a-changing”. I really like this song. Sometimes I would think, what could come out if you combine Dylan’s song lyrics with the modern music.

直播截圖

主持人：你說他的歌是給人希望的。你覺得還有哪些歌可以體現(xiàn)這一點？

吳求：這段時間聽的，《物是人非》（Things have changed），還有《別再想了,沒事的》（Don’t think twice, It’s all right）。

主持人：吳求之前介紹過，他是“One Guitar”樂隊以及“靈音樂隊”成員，自己也有不少的原創(chuàng)作品。你在寫歌的時候最初的動機是什么？

吳求：我就是憑當(dāng)時的感受，特別高興的時候沒人分享，孤單、痛苦的時候沒人分享，就和歌詞分享。

蘇莉：后來有自己的觀眾嗎？

吳求：其實，粉絲就是校園里的同學(xué)們。

主持人：吳求剛才說的他寫歌的動機，讓我想起迪倫的一段話，我不久前買了迪倫的書《編年史》（CHRONICLES: volume one），這是迪倫的回憶錄，也譯為《像一塊滾石》，在這本書的54頁，迪倫這樣寫道：“我說不出是什么時候開始寫歌的，但是要定義我感受世界的方式，除了民謠歌詞，我再也找不到能與之相提并論的，或者能趕得上它一半的事物了?！边@句話和吳求剛才的說法非常像，在迪倫看來，寫歌是一種表達(dá)方式，是感受世界的方式。

Host: Ok, so you say his songs give hope to people. What his other songs, in your opinion, express this attitude?

Shayer: I recently listened to “Things have changed”, and also “Don’t think twice, it’s alright”.

Host: Shayer previously mentioned, he is a “One Guitar” and“Soul Music” band player, and he himself has written a lot of songs. When you write a song, what is your motivation?

Shayer: I go with the feeling. When I’m happy and have no one around, or when I feel lonely and sad, and again, have no one around me, then I express my feelings in the lyrics.

Anastasia: Do you have followers?

Shayer: Actually, my fans are my university classmates.

Host: When Shayer talked about his motivation to lyric writing, it reminded me of one quote by Dylan. I just bought his book, “Chronicles: volume one”, which is his memoirs, also translated as “Like a Rolling Stone”. On page 54 he writes: “I won’t say when I started writing songs, but when defi ning the way through which I came to feel the world, then it would be folk lyrics, as I don’t know anything that can compare with them, or at least something half as good as them”. This saying is very close in meaning to what Shayer has just mentioned. For Bob Dylan, song writing is a way of self-expression, the way to feel the world.

Bob Dylan lyrics are as beautiful as poems

Anastasia: Let’s speak with Reem, who is now in Egypt, about Bob Dylan and the Nobel Literature Prize. Do you think he is deserving of the award?

Reem: I am neutral towards Bob Dylan winning the award. I hadn’t heard his songs before and started following him since hearing the news about him receiving the Nobel Prize. But after I got more familiar with his songs, I became his fan. I am especially fond of his “Blowing in the wind” and “Knocking on heaven’s door”. They are so peaceful, so beautiful. Even though the melody is quite simple and not so appealing, the main focus is on lyrics. Many outstanding lyrics were created by him in his youth, in his twenties. But they still can find their place in our modern society, and it’s another reason why his lyrics are so amazing.

Host: Reem took part in the 8th meeting of ‘World Speaking”where we discussed “The book that brought China closer to me”. Last time Reem introduced the heroic yet romantic“Mao Zedong Poetry” book. As we see, Reem is fond of literature, and also very well educated about poetry. From your point of view, what makes Bob Dylan’s lyrics stand out?

Reem: Many literature lovers would say, a well-written piece will give you a new inspiration every time you read it. I think Bob Dylan’s lyrics fall under this category. I really appreciate poems with an intricate meaning, with rich content. You can fi nd it in his works, that’s why they sparked my interest.

Host: Let’s now hear the opinion of Dylan’s compatriot, Lila, who’s also from the USA.

Lila: I’m really happy for Bob Dylan that he got this award. Bob Dylan, through his songs, was able to attract the whole world, it’s amazing. Even though we both are from the USA, I didn’t listen much to his songs. He is the same generation with my dad. I know that my dad would sometimes listen to his songs. My favourite is “Make you feel my love”. This song is especially beautiful. I was so surprised to fi nd out, right after he got this prize, that this song was composed by him, because I heard the Adele versions many times, and I believed it was she who wrote it. I think after Bob Dylan gets his award, the next awardee will be Haruki Murakami. I personally love his novels.

鮑勃·迪倫歌詞有詩歌美

蘇莉：我們請目前還在開羅的可云，通過國際連線，談?wù)勀銓Φ蟼惈@得諾貝爾文學(xué)獎的看法。你覺得他應(yīng)該得獎嗎？

沙可云：我對迪倫獲得諾獎持中立態(tài)度，老實說，我之前沒有聽說過他，我完全是迪倫獲獎之后才關(guān)注他的。不過關(guān)注他之后，我成為了他的粉絲。我特別喜歡《答案在風(fēng)中飄揚》（Blowin’ in the Wind）和《敲開天堂的門》（Knockin' on heaven's door），感覺很溫馨，詞特別美。雖然曲子不是特別復(fù)雜，不是特別有吸引力，重點是詞特別美。他很多經(jīng)典的詞都是很年輕的時候?qū)懙?，估計也就是二十幾歲，但是特別適合我們現(xiàn)代社會，這也是我覺得他的歌詞有詩歌美的原因之一吧。

主持人：可云上次參加了我們第8期的國際朋友說“帶我認(rèn)識中國的一本書”，當(dāng)時可云談到的是豪邁又浪漫的《毛主席詩詞》，可以看得出來，可云是一個對文學(xué)、對詩歌有修養(yǎng)和造詣的人，從文學(xué)欣賞的角度，你覺得迪倫的詞有什么樣的特點？

沙可云：很多文學(xué)愛好者會覺得，好的文章是每一次讀都會有新的啟發(fā)。我覺得迪倫的詞就是如此。我特別喜歡意義非凡、富有內(nèi)涵的詩詞，在他的作品創(chuàng)作中可以找到這一點，所以他的作品已經(jīng)吸引我了。

主持人：我們來看一下鮑勃·迪倫的同胞，來自美國的星悅發(fā)來的場外反饋。

星悅：迪倫得到諾貝爾文學(xué)獎，我很為他高興。他能通過自己的歌影響全球的聽眾，很了不起。雖然他是我的同胞，不過我不怎么聽他的歌，他是我父母那年代的歌手，我知道我父母有時候會聽他的歌。我最喜歡的是《讓你感受我的愛》（Make You Feel My Love），這首歌特別好聽。我很驚訝，因為我是在他獲獎之后才知道這首歌是他寫的，因為我一直聽阿黛爾（Adele）的版本。我本來以為是她寫的。我覺得鮑勃·迪倫得獎之后，日本作家村上春樹應(yīng)該也不遠(yuǎn)了。有時候世界就是這樣的，得多試幾次才能成功。我個人還挺喜歡村上春樹的小說。

先有歌詞還是先有旋律？

主持人：我自己也寫歌，我一般是先寫旋律，再填歌詞，最后再編曲配器。我記得崔健說過，“旋律是歌詞的最好的老師?！钡蟼惒煌?，他都是先寫詞，或者說他先寫了一首詩，然后再去那個民謠的曲庫里面找一個旋律來跟他的詩匹配。你寫歌的時候，是先寫歌詞，還是先寫旋律？

What comes fi rst: lyrics or melody?

Host: I also write songs. Usually I compose music first, then go to lyrics and then the instrument accompaniment. I remember Cui Jian once said: “Melody is the best teacher for lyrics”. But it’s different with Bob Dylan. He makes the lyrics fi rst, or a poem, and then in the assortment of folk music finds the one that matches with the lyrics. When you write your music, what do you compose fi rst: lyrics or music?

Shayer: When I was just starting, I composed both melody and lyrics at the same time, bit by bit. Now that’s how I write my songs: I have an idea fi rst, a feeling I want to express, then I take out my guitar and record it. Then I sing while playing, and I use the words to express my feelings, and then the song is made. So I don’t separate words from music, only afterwards I polish the lyrics.

Host: In your method music still prevails, and only then come the words. What do you think about the way Bob Dylan composes his songs?

Shayer: It can be explained like this: in Bob Dylan a poet comes before a musician. He highlights his poems withthe music. For him, music is just a tool, it’s a different way to express himself. For me, the music is also a way to express feelings. So when I was speaking about expressing feelings, I meant both lyrics and music.

吳求：剛開始的話，我是旋律和歌詞同步寫的，一點一點寫出來。我最近寫歌是，腦子里有個想法，有個感受想說出來，然后我就拿上吉他錄音。吉他彈唱，唱的時候唱出一些基本的表達(dá)我的感受的詞語，然后就是差不多唱完一首歌，也就是說，我先有一個整體的形狀，然后再去精確地填詞。

主持人：你的方法還是旋律在先，歌詞在后。那你對迪倫的寫作方式怎么看？他一般是先寫出歌詞，或者是一首詩的。

吳求：應(yīng)該是這么解釋，他比音樂家更是個詩人。他是用音樂去體現(xiàn)他的歌詞，音樂對他來說是一個工具，這也是另外一種表達(dá)方法。像我的話，因為旋律也是包含著感受的，所以我剛開始定義的那個感受不僅包括詞，也包括那段旋律。

歌曲要不要這么長？

主持人：因為鮑勃·迪倫是個詩人，首先他是寫了一首詩，然后再用曲子去展現(xiàn)這首詩，這就出現(xiàn)一種情況，就是這首詩如果很長的話，那這首歌也會很長，很多歌動不動就七八分鐘，像《荒蕪之街》（Desolation Row），已經(jīng)有11分20秒之長，完全和現(xiàn)在的主流歌曲不同，吳求對這個怎么看？

吳求：現(xiàn)在的3分多鐘的歌曲，前奏之外，中間還加兩段間奏，副歌要重復(fù)兩三遍，那3分鐘講主題的時間其實剩不了多少。這也是我對現(xiàn)在的歌曲比較不滿意的一點，就是太短了，歌詞里面沒有東西。

主持人：現(xiàn)在是一個快餐的時代，現(xiàn)在的歌手如果像迪倫一樣，一寫就是10分鐘的歌，不知道聽眾會不會聽。

吳求：關(guān)鍵是，那個時代沒有網(wǎng)絡(luò)，可選的歌曲沒有現(xiàn)在這么多，現(xiàn)在人們的選擇太多了，比如說現(xiàn)在很多流行的東西都是一個多少秒的小視頻。

蘇莉：對，在這個時代，流行的東西越短就越容易傳播。比如最近特別火的日本神曲《PPAP》（“Pen-Pineapple-Apple-Pen”），連跳舞帶唱歌，也就是1分多鐘。

沙可云：我想起以前埃及的音樂，有時一個曲子要一個小時才可以欣賞完。聽眾和觀眾的品味不斷變化，可能隨科技發(fā)展，人們的生活不斷在加速吧。比如小說，現(xiàn)在大部分人更喜歡選擇短篇小說，隨著時代變化，人們沒有那么多時間去閱讀大部頭著作。

Should the lyrics be so long?

Host: Because Bob Dylan is a poet, he first writes words, then uses the melody to accompany the lyrics. This kind of approach makes his songs very long, they can last for 7-8 minutes, or, like “Desolation Row”, which lasts for 11 min 20 sec. It’s very different from modern pop music culture. What is your opinion about that, Shayer?

Shayer: The contemporary three-minute songs, apart from the prelusion, in the middle of the song there are two interludes, then the song lyrics repeat two-three times, and thats all. That’s why I am a bit disappointed with modern music - too short and meaningless.

Host: It’s a “fast food” generation, nowadays if an singer decides to write a 10-minute long song like Bob Dylan, I doubt he would fi nd an audience.

Shayer: The key thing is there was no Internet back then, and the choice of songs was not that wide, and now we have a variety of everything to choose from. For example, the most popular vehicle nowadays is a several seconds-long video.

Anastasia: Right, nowadays the shorter it is the easier it is to distribute. For example, the most “viral” video is the Japanese “PPAP” (“Pen-Pineapple-Apple-Pen”). Even with the dancing part, the length of the video doesn’t exceed one minute.

Reem: It reminded me of the Egyptian music, which can last for an hour. The audience’s tastes always go through changes, along with the technology advancement, people’s rhythm of life also gets faster. Take novels as an example, nowadays people prefer short ones, along with the time change, people don’t have so much time for reading anymore.

Comparing Bob Dylan with other singers

Host: In your culture, do you think who can compare with Bob Dylan?

Reem: In our Arabic region, more than twenty countries share the identical culture and language. I think we can take as a comparison the Syrian writer Adonis, who was a popular nominee for the Nobel Literature Prize. Not long ago I noticed a post in my friend’s We-Chat moments, where my friend said it was Adoniswho got the prestigious award, and then later he discovered, it was Bob Dylan, so he got it wrong. I like poems by Adonis. Even though I do not agree with some of his opinions, but from the literature and song lyrics point of view, I prefer poems. He is also pretty famous in China. When I attended his lecture in BFSU, I found out many Chinese readers were very familiar with his works. Music-wise, there is also an artist that can be compared with Bob Dylan, Marsil Khalifa from Lebanon. He plays the Egyptian instrument oud and sings his own songs.

從左到右吳求、沙可云、星悅

和鮑勃·迪倫相比的人

主持人：在你們的文化里，你認(rèn)為有哪個詩人或音樂人能和鮑勃·迪倫相比？他有什么作品？

沙可云：我們阿拉伯地區(qū)，二十幾個國家分享同一種語言和文化。我覺得可以對比的是來自敘利亞的阿多尼斯，他也一直是諾貝爾文學(xué)獎熱門人選。前不久我還看到一個朋友在朋友圈中發(fā)了條消息說，阿多尼斯是今年的諾獎得主，后來才發(fā)現(xiàn)是迪倫，是他弄錯了。阿多尼斯的詩歌我很喜歡，雖然我對他的一些看法不是很贊同，但是從文學(xué)和詩歌的角度，我個人很喜歡他的詩。他在中國影響力也比較大，我之前在北外參加過他本人的講座，發(fā)現(xiàn)好多中國讀者對他的詩歌都比較熟悉。從音樂角度也有一位可以相比的藝術(shù)家，就是來自黎巴嫩的哈利法（Marsil Khalifa）, 他一邊彈阿拉伯典型的樂器烏德琴（Oud），一邊唱自己寫的詩。

吳求：我要說的是泰戈爾，泰戈爾到底是印度人還是孟加拉人，一直有爭論。在我看來，以民族性講的話，他是孟加拉人，以地區(qū)性講的話，他是印度人。不過，他寫的大部分詩都是孟加拉語的，在詩里把孟加拉稱作祖國、母親，人們也稱他為孟加拉的雪萊。泰戈爾和鮑勃·迪倫的確有可比性。還有一位詩人叫伊斯拉姆（Nazrul Islam），他寫了很多反抗當(dāng)時英國殖民當(dāng)局的詩，也揭露了很多社會的問題，他是一個相當(dāng)頑強的詩人，因為有他的詩歌，大家有勇氣繼續(xù)戰(zhàn)斗下去，接著反抗。

主持人：最后我跟大家再分享一下這本迪倫的《編年史》里，他對自己的評價。在書的第149頁，他這樣寫道：“無論我走到哪里，我都是一個60年代的游吟詩人，一個搖滾民謠的遺跡，一個從逝去時代過來的詞語匠人，一個從無人知曉的地方來的虛構(gòu)的國家首腦。我處在被文化遺忘的無底深淵之中，走出叢林，人們看到我走來。”這次，正是因為諾貝爾文學(xué)獎，讓這位隱居叢林中的詩人迪倫，再次向我們走來。（中文整理：吳星鐸，英文整理：蘇莉，實習(xí)生劉鑫瑩、華曉軍參與錄音整理）

Shayer: I want to mention Tagore, whose origins are not quite clear, whether he is from India or Bangladesh. For me, by nationality he is Bangladeshi, but by residency, he is Indian. But the majority of his poems are written in Bangladeshi language. In his works he talks about Bangladesh as his Motherland. His mother and other people also take him as a Bangladeshi. Tagore and Bob Dylan for sure have a lot of things in common. There is a poet called Nazrul Islam, many of his poems protest against British colonization. He revealed a lot of social issues, he is for sure a very courageous poet, because of his works, people had the motivation to continue fi ghting and rebelling.

Host: At the end, I want to share with everyone what Bob Dylan wrote about himself. Page 149 there is such a saying: “No matter where I am, I am always that troubadour from the sixties, that folk, rock-n-roll music’s relic, coming from the past words’ craftsman, coming from nowhere the country’s leader. I came from forgotten by culture’s bottomless abyss, from the forest for the people to see me.” With that, it was really because of the Nobel Literature Prize, that let this living in the forest poet come to us one more time. (Chinese version: Wu Xingduo; English version: Anastasia Sukhoretskaya; interns Liu Xinying, Hua Xiaojun responsible for recording decipherment)

Bob Dylan a Nobel Literature Prize awardee

主持人(Host)：吳星鐸，中國（Wu Xingduo，China）

嘉賓主持(Hosting guest)：蘇莉，俄羅斯（Anastasia Sukhoretskaya,Russia）

嘉賓(Guests)：吳求，孟加拉國（Shayer S. Utsho,Bangladesh）；沙可云，埃及（Reem Saqr，Egypt)；星悅，美國（Lila Kidson,the USA）